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EVA B777 close call departing LAX

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EVA B777 close call departing LAX

Old 6th Jan 2017, 00:00
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Uplinker : yes of course but the real confusion starts 30 seconds later when she turn him back left heading 270...and then goes on with her " southbound calls" until the crew finally gets to understand what she meant/wants ..
We don't know who initially said 'left' because there was a drop-out, but EVA 015 read back "....left turn heading 180...". They got as far as about 010, (a left turn from 090), and their next transmission was a request for high speed climb, NOT to query the turn direction.

"the real confusion", as you put it, actually starts much earlier at 1:44 when ATC realises a problem and EVA 015 are told to "turn right, right turn heading 180...", but which they fail to do, even after reading the correct instruction back and then being told to "expedite your right turn....." six seconds later.

So they were told three times to turn right, AND the heading to turn onto, but they still failed to do so - WTF ? (And this was well before the 29....270 and subsequent instructions).

Last edited by Uplinker; 6th Jan 2017 at 00:10.
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Old 14th Jan 2017, 13:32
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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In this morning's (Jan 14) Los Angeles Times article about NTSB officially investigating the EVA near-CFIT with Mt. Wilson. I take away from the article that the FAA is going into the bunkers.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
LA Times NTSB and EVA.pdf (66.4 KB, 413 views)
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Old 19th May 2017, 14:50
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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preliminary report

preliminary report here (courtesy Kathryn's Report web site)

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/Re...relim&IType=IA
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Old 24th Oct 2017, 10:08
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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There's an excellent analysis of the incident on Medium: ATC nightmare in the hills by Mark Zee

(Former ATC, Airline Pilot, Flight Dispatcher and airline Station Manager)

medium.com/@markzee/atc-nightmare-in-the-hills-680407b9629b

Short conclusion: "ATC agencies should make available to their controllers the same degree of emergency and “unusual situation” training that airlines offer to pilots."
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Old 24th Oct 2017, 13:49
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting article and yes perhaps ATC dos need better training.
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Old 24th Oct 2017, 15:45
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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The controller was in way over her head. The fact that a different voice didn't come on to resolve the mess early on tells me her position wasn't be monitored by a supervisor. LA was "east" and the weather was lousy. The lack of redundancy under those circumstances was bad form, to say the least.

Hope we get to see a final report, complete with ATC transcripts and TRACON radar readouts.
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Old 25th Oct 2017, 11:16
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Time for clickable text messaging for ATC instead of voice. There will be more and more non US and non english speaking pilots in the future system. With US pilots no problem but with a global mix we are asking for trouble.
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Old 25th Oct 2017, 11:50
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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I think there is better technology than text but voice is always faster and mistypes may not get picked up by 'foreign' crews and more and more and more people on this earths speak English every year especially in professional occupations so the language problem will go away.
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Old 25th Oct 2017, 14:37
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Time for clickable text messaging for ATC instead of voice.
Which I suppose many of us already have and use in the shape of CPDLC, but in it's current iteration I can't see it being an improvement on "voice" in a busy terminal area ( though it's great in remote areas) ...

I'd pity the poor controllers trying to shuffle the Heathrow arrivals solely through CPDLC...each controller would probably need a dozen "scribes" or more if things started to go off script.
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Old 31st Oct 2017, 21:55
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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I think part of the issue with US ATC is the assumption that everyone is a native English speaker.

If you listen to a Heathrow ATC tape (probably as good a mix of nationalities as anywhere) and a US ATC tape it is immediately obvious even to a non pilot that the language in the US is much looser and the scope for misunderstandings much greater.
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Old 1st Nov 2017, 13:41
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Absolutely correct!

During my airline career it was an issue on the flight deck as well. Few pilots would follow the FAA's phraseology guidance set forth in the Aeronautical Information Manual.
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Old 1st Nov 2017, 15:11
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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aterpster

The fact that a different voice didn't come on to resolve the mess early on tells me her position wasn't be monitored by a supervisor.
Was she a trainee? If so she would have had a coach sitting with her. If she was fully qualified why the need for a supervisor to monitor her? With multiple sectors operating it would need a lot of supervisors to monitor each controller. But maybe I'm just misunderstanding what you mean.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 13:23
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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You missed my point. Southern California TRACON (SCT) functionally operates as separate TRACONs. There is supposed to be a supervisor on the floor for each of these separate TRACONs. The Los Angeles Sector covers KLAX and a few small IFR airports. At 1:00 the only activity was at KLAX. As soon as her situation got bad he/she should have been alerted and immediately plugged in. But, if he/she wasn't on the floor he would not have known.

KLAX doesn't "go east" that often so it is supposed to be a heads up operation.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 14:27
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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As soon as her situation got bad he/she should have been alerted and immediately plugged in. But, if he/she wasn't on the floor he would not have known.
I think that if you look at this in real time (and not Monday morning quarterbacking) by the time it may have dawned on her that it had become a real issue it was almost immediately over. She was too busy trying to sort the problem out rather than call the Supervisor over. Perhaps it's different in the USA but where I came from Supervisors did not generally monitor control positions unless requested to do so.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 16:47
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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HT, same hold true here.

This notion that there’s a supervisor just waiting to override at any given time is incorrect. If the controller wasn't full performance level qualified (fully qualified in other words) then there was an instructor involved, not a supervisor. If she was a FPL, then the controller themselves or their data assistant called for help.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 18:07
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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In my view she became overloaded as soon as she saw EVA turn north. She was more concerned with separation from the departing Air Canada than terrain clearance. Her phraseology went down the tubes. My guess is that the supervisor wasn't on the floor. Hopefully, the NTSB will eventually let us know.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 19:18
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry aterpster, you don't seem to want to listen to what ATC people are telling you. Your notion that a Supervisor would have saved the day any sooner is misplaced. Perhaps you need to go visit one of your TRACONs to get a better understanding.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 23:07
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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I have many times, including the TRACON at issue, which is 50 miles from where I live. My last visit was to get a nice briefing on FUSION.

As to saving the day, I would hope we all would see the NTSB final incident report before too many more months go by. What I said is that a supervisor could have (not would have) saved the day.
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Old 2nd Nov 2017, 23:58
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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And I worked at an European equivalent of your TRACONs for 44 years and I fail to comprehend your logic, sorry.
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Old 3rd Nov 2017, 13:45
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Hotel Tango View Post
And I worked at an European equivalent of your TRACONs for 44 years and I fail to comprehend your logic, sorry.
You apparently don't understand how a FAA TRACON is organized. It's not worth the banter.
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