EVA B777 close call departing LAX
Duncan, while the southbound instruction is a bid odd in my opinion it is decipherable, my point was more directed towards the initial instruction to turn left and the language and cultural differences that might have led to the instruction being followed without question, this leading to the problem in the first instance.
Perhaps a native English speaker should have been able to articulate their concern about the turn direction, whereas a crew with essentially procedural English would need to have a conversation on the flight deck.
The additional complication would be the cultural issues associated with questioning authority, if the culture of the crew is such that instructions are adhered to and only questioned under extreme circumstances then there is further room for problems to occur.
I am not suggesting the crew handled it perfectly or even well, but I don't think we can hang the crew given all the circumstances.
Perhaps a native English speaker should have been able to articulate their concern about the turn direction, whereas a crew with essentially procedural English would need to have a conversation on the flight deck.
The additional complication would be the cultural issues associated with questioning authority, if the culture of the crew is such that instructions are adhered to and only questioned under extreme circumstances then there is further room for problems to occur.
I am not suggesting the crew handled it perfectly or even well, but I don't think we can hang the crew given all the circumstances.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: USA
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here are 2D and 3D views of the path near Mt Wilson. These are reduced size, links to larger size images at bottom.
http://imgur.com/vlBVLbh.jpg
http://imgur.com/SKUY8o8.jpg
http://m2ei.com/EVA_Flight_015/EVA_F...tal_height.kmz
http://imgur.com/vlBVLbh.jpg
http://imgur.com/SKUY8o8.jpg
http://m2ei.com/EVA_Flight_015/EVA_F...tal_height.kmz
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Wow. Close indeed. 
Thanks to you and DaveReidUK for the plots.
WebTrak may be showing the FAA data which is denser than the FR24 .kml file.
At any rate, the data from various sources that I've found is in close agreement, this incident was very nearly a major tragedy.
Thanks to you and DaveReidUK for the plots.
WebTrak may be showing the FAA data which is denser than the FR24 .kml file.
At any rate, the data from various sources that I've found is in close agreement, this incident was very nearly a major tragedy.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: on the road less travelled
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aterpster,
That is factual but it doesn't address the point i was making.
After ATC corrects their initial error with "right turn, right turn heading 180" which EVA acknowledged "copy, right turn heading 180". Seconds later ATC instructs "expedite your right turn" which was responded with "roger, we are passing heading 010 continue right turn heading". In the next transmission to EVA, ATC instructs "stop your climb" and moments later "turn left, left turn heading 29..correction 270" and EVA responded with "left heading 270".
EVA crew were (albeit with apparent loss of SA) following each ATC instruction without query. The left turn heading 270 interrupted the "expedite right turn" instruction. This second ATC error IMO was meant for Air Canada to provide additional separation. Had that instruction been given to the proper aircraft EVA might likely not have been in the situation they found themselves in.
The Ventura 7 SID requires radar vectors.
After ATC corrects their initial error with "right turn, right turn heading 180" which EVA acknowledged "copy, right turn heading 180". Seconds later ATC instructs "expedite your right turn" which was responded with "roger, we are passing heading 010 continue right turn heading". In the next transmission to EVA, ATC instructs "stop your climb" and moments later "turn left, left turn heading 29..correction 270" and EVA responded with "left heading 270".
EVA crew were (albeit with apparent loss of SA) following each ATC instruction without query. The left turn heading 270 interrupted the "expedite right turn" instruction. This second ATC error IMO was meant for Air Canada to provide additional separation. Had that instruction been given to the proper aircraft EVA might likely not have been in the situation they found themselves in.
Last edited by HighSpeedAluminum; 30th Dec 2016 at 06:53.
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It appears that the crew failed not only to be aware initially of the terrain to the north, but also failed to respond to the GPWS warnings. Regardless of whatever ATC clearances they were given, they should have been responding much more aggressively to the GPWS. However, that aside, their confusion would have been caused and then compounded by all the contradictory instructions and non-standard phraseology. That was wholly incompetent controlling.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: on the road less travelled
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
failed to respond to the GPWS warnings
they should have been responding much more aggressively to the GPWS
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Highspeedaluminium, if you look at the charts of their track and the terrain and obstacles, then the EGPWS would have been going nuts. Their terrain clearance was minimal judging by the data on those charts, and if accurate, then they must have merely followed ATC instructions and ignored the GPWS.
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: on the road less travelled
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You are using information (in this thread) to suggest they narrowly missed antenna, terrain etc...and then conclude that they "IGNORED" GPWS warnings?
Case closed!
Case closed!
Last edited by HighSpeedAluminum; 31st Dec 2016 at 22:42.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Using the FlightRadar24 .kml file (which is all we will ever see about this incident) and plotting it on 1:24,000 topo maps I see a distinct possibility they were paralleling Mt. Wilson flying east, and above the terrain off to their left, but possibly level with the main array of antennas. If their EGPWS did not have "peaks and obstacles" it is possible their EGPWS never went off. But, EVA isn't talking and the FAA's precise radar tracks will never be released to the public.
A question for non-native English speakers on PPRuNe ... what would be understood by the colloquialism "southbound"? Granted it contains the word "south", but if you were not familiar with the word, what would "bound" mean to you as an adjunct? And what did these guys take it to mean?
Not made any easier with beeping cockpit warnings and an ATC lady shouting at you in Americanglish.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Highspeedaluminium
+1
This tread is going nowhere and I am surprised it still goes on. Trial and mobbing by internet.
For those waiting for a CVR transcript , as the flight continued to destination I doubt you will ever see it ..but that said. today with smartphones , everything is possible...
Rest assured that Eva Air will investigate , and probably send the FAA a nice letter. The guys running the airline OPS are very good and quite sharp.
As to the " southbound" calls , this would have probably been queered and understood in a normal no-stress situation. But here the lady first confused the crew by mixing up instructions, then lost it when spotting the potential conflict with ACA, , then shouted , words like " What are you doing? " and her repeated " turn Southbound" calls. confusing even more the crew.
A simple call " EVA turn right heading 180" at any time during the event would have solved the problem.
That is the lesson to be learnt here , used standard phraseology, the more so when in an emergency situation . She could have even added " expedite" . nothing else.
I bet you the lady will go back to the sim with a few reminders , something will be learnt out of that one for everybody else in San Diego and it will be a bit safer for everybody as a result.
You are using information (in this thread) to suggest they narrowly missed antenna, terrain etc...and then conclude that they "IGNORED" GPWS warnings?Case closed!
This tread is going nowhere and I am surprised it still goes on. Trial and mobbing by internet.
For those waiting for a CVR transcript , as the flight continued to destination I doubt you will ever see it ..but that said. today with smartphones , everything is possible...
Rest assured that Eva Air will investigate , and probably send the FAA a nice letter. The guys running the airline OPS are very good and quite sharp.
As to the " southbound" calls , this would have probably been queered and understood in a normal no-stress situation. But here the lady first confused the crew by mixing up instructions, then lost it when spotting the potential conflict with ACA, , then shouted , words like " What are you doing? " and her repeated " turn Southbound" calls. confusing even more the crew.
A simple call " EVA turn right heading 180" at any time during the event would have solved the problem.
That is the lesson to be learnt here , used standard phraseology, the more so when in an emergency situation . She could have even added " expedite" . nothing else.
I bet you the lady will go back to the sim with a few reminders , something will be learnt out of that one for everybody else in San Diego and it will be a bit safer for everybody as a result.
This tread is going nowhere
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Sweden
Age: 47
Posts: 443
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DuncanF
With all the usual disclaimers about me being a non-pilot, although very familiar with the common spoken language etc, I would absolutely imagine myself being confused by this word in a moderately stressed situation where directions are of the essence.
A native Swedish speaker, I would have no problems with the "south" part of the expression, but I can easily see that the part "bound" would have me reaching for the more dwindling parts of my brain. "Bound" is part of the verb "to bind" which would make me hesitate for those extra seconds about the meaning of this instruction. While I have heard the word "southbound" before it is always in the context of "he is going southbound on the M4" that is, the person is already travelling in the south direction.
"Southwards" would be easier for me as a Swede to associate with an instruction to turn south because I am currently heading in the wrong (that is, north) direction. The use of "wards" is the same as in "towards" and thus is easier to understand for me.
These chaps were Asian and I do not know how much this might have affected their thinking. Usual disclaimers about Indo-European (esp. Germanic) vs Asian languages apply.
A question for non-native English speakers on PPRuNe ... what would be understood by the colloquialism "southbound"?
A native Swedish speaker, I would have no problems with the "south" part of the expression, but I can easily see that the part "bound" would have me reaching for the more dwindling parts of my brain. "Bound" is part of the verb "to bind" which would make me hesitate for those extra seconds about the meaning of this instruction. While I have heard the word "southbound" before it is always in the context of "he is going southbound on the M4" that is, the person is already travelling in the south direction.
"Southwards" would be easier for me as a Swede to associate with an instruction to turn south because I am currently heading in the wrong (that is, north) direction. The use of "wards" is the same as in "towards" and thus is easier to understand for me.
These chaps were Asian and I do not know how much this might have affected their thinking. Usual disclaimers about Indo-European (esp. Germanic) vs Asian languages apply.
That is the lesson to be learnt here , used standard phraseology, the more so when in an emergency situation
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
southbound is a confusing word, when you dont know its meaning, despite the fact that part of the word is recognizable. If a person does not know what the whole word means, disecting it might not help. I remember when I first time encountered it it was the name of the song and I had to look it up. Even though I suspected that it meant direction of some sort. And I wasnt preoccupied with some afterTO routine.
Every new word even among other familiar onces might throw you off because you realize that i might mean something completely opposite to what you think it would mean.
Every new word even among other familiar onces might throw you off because you realize that i might mean something completely opposite to what you think it would mean.
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Japan
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MrSnuggles
Except that in this case, it isn’t. The “bound” in “the train bound for somewhere”, or “homeward bound” or “south-bound” is an independent adjective that originally means ready (i.e. in a state of readiness), and has an etymology which has nothing to do with the verb bind.
Which I think only reinforces your point that it could cause even an advanced English speaker to hesitate if they weren’t familiar with the phrase!
“Bound” is part of the verb “to bind” which would make me hesitate for those extra seconds about the meaning of this instruction.
Which I think only reinforces your point that it could cause even an advanced English speaker to hesitate if they weren’t familiar with the phrase!
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
framer
Good point . Absolutely agree.
I am curious if the FAA as a whole , and not only in San Diego, will use this incident to change their ATC training syllabus, especially in their refresher courses.
To use standard phraseology when stress levels are high you have to have been using it regularly during normal ops, so the lesson is to use standard phraseology all the time without the verbiage.
I am curious if the FAA as a whole , and not only in San Diego, will use this incident to change their ATC training syllabus, especially in their refresher courses.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC Watcher:
The more likely conclusion is that this particular controller was not performing to present FAA standards. A lady friend of mine who is a former center controller listened to the tape. Her comment was "lazy controlling." She said she worked alongside a couple of those, which drove her up the wall. She added they were both "white boys" so the fact the controller at issue is apparently black is irrelevant.
The more likely conclusion is that this particular controller was not performing to present FAA standards. A lady friend of mine who is a former center controller listened to the tape. Her comment was "lazy controlling." She said she worked alongside a couple of those, which drove her up the wall. She added they were both "white boys" so the fact the controller at issue is apparently black is irrelevant.
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yes as native English speakers it would not be confusing although its meaning is contextual as bound has several meanings from how you run, tied up with rope or travel plus others.
I have always found when teaching people with English as a second language always be direct stick to a standard set of words for understanding, even if bad English, no hidden meanings. So agree standard phraseology is the best and safest.
ATC is not there to pass the time of day. Clear consistent English to a known set standard that's why takeoff and departure are used now as 500+ died due to the mix up over takeoff.
The question do we expect the USA to change ? Don't expect so they have a very poor concept of what they call Aliens. Their cabin crew and airports are terrible when dealing with international travellers, I know of people who travel the opposite way round the world to avoid passing through a US airport, so don't expect ATC to change they just don't get what the problem is.
I have always found when teaching people with English as a second language always be direct stick to a standard set of words for understanding, even if bad English, no hidden meanings. So agree standard phraseology is the best and safest.
ATC is not there to pass the time of day. Clear consistent English to a known set standard that's why takeoff and departure are used now as 500+ died due to the mix up over takeoff.
The question do we expect the USA to change ? Don't expect so they have a very poor concept of what they call Aliens. Their cabin crew and airports are terrible when dealing with international travellers, I know of people who travel the opposite way round the world to avoid passing through a US airport, so don't expect ATC to change they just don't get what the problem is.
Last edited by horizon flyer; 3rd Jan 2017 at 15:16.