Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
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LMI2933 seems to have been holding at GEMLI prior to a planned RNAV approach, indeed!. They started down under power. Last ADS-B report was at 15,500 feet near GEMLI, over 3,000 feet above the final approach. It appears they had extended gear and flaps in anticipation of continued flight worthiness. They crossed through the final glide-path at about 10,500 feet about 3 nm south of the FAP (KUNGU) at 9,700 feet and crashed near the RNG VOR. With the loss of power is the loss of RNAV (EFIS, FMS). The crew would have the option to use ILS, LOC, or VOR radio navigation tuned manually, and make mention of LOC.
The crew's actions while under power on their final descent seem reasonable if assuming that they don't flameout.
In hindsight, with the Feed tanks on fumes, the crew may have had an option to descend flaps up gear up. Once they configured for landing and by diving to capture the glide path, they lost any option to make it. There is no option to raise flaps and gear once all power is lost.
Revised my blog to reflect the RNAV approach, thanks for the help.
Satcom Guru: LMI2933 LAMIA AVRO RJ85 Medellín Deadstick
The crew's actions while under power on their final descent seem reasonable if assuming that they don't flameout.
In hindsight, with the Feed tanks on fumes, the crew may have had an option to descend flaps up gear up. Once they configured for landing and by diving to capture the glide path, they lost any option to make it. There is no option to raise flaps and gear once all power is lost.
Revised my blog to reflect the RNAV approach, thanks for the help.
Satcom Guru: LMI2933 LAMIA AVRO RJ85 Medellín Deadstick
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Quote from Chapecoense air crash survivor: 'Crew gave no warning' - BBC News
It seems the flight crew were in a deep state of denial.
A survivor of the plane crash in Colombia in which 71 people were killed including most of Brazil's Chapecoense football team says the crew never gave the passengers any warning.
Rafael Henzel, a 43-year-old journalist travelling with Chapecoense on board the LaMia plane, said they were not even told to fasten their seatbelts.
Mr Henzel is one of only six people to survive the crash on 28 November.
Investigators believe the plane crashed because it ran out of fuel.
In his first interview since the accident, Mr Henzel told Brazil's Fantastico TV programme that the passengers had no warning of the impending crash.
"No one told us to fasten our seat belts," he said. "Every time we asked when we'd arrive we were told '10 minutes'." "Then the lights and the engines went off. That scared us somewhat, but we weren't warned of anything. We didn't know what was going on," Mr Henzel said.
He recalled how people rushed back to their seats when the plane went dark. But he said that no-one had expected the plane to crash.
Rafael Henzel, a 43-year-old journalist travelling with Chapecoense on board the LaMia plane, said they were not even told to fasten their seatbelts.
Mr Henzel is one of only six people to survive the crash on 28 November.
Investigators believe the plane crashed because it ran out of fuel.
In his first interview since the accident, Mr Henzel told Brazil's Fantastico TV programme that the passengers had no warning of the impending crash.
"No one told us to fasten our seat belts," he said. "Every time we asked when we'd arrive we were told '10 minutes'." "Then the lights and the engines went off. That scared us somewhat, but we weren't warned of anything. We didn't know what was going on," Mr Henzel said.
He recalled how people rushed back to their seats when the plane went dark. But he said that no-one had expected the plane to crash.
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It seems the flight crew were in a deep state of denial.
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I think that with what they were being confronted with, turning the seat belt signs on was the last thing on their minds!
It seems the flight crew were in a deep state of denial.
But (apologies if this have been mentioned already) steep descent and deceleration may have caused the fuel boost pumps to unprime, preventing the use of whatever remaining fuel they believed was still usable.
Not only this. I wonder what the passengers did, when the emergency lightning turned on
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On page 40, post 792 I pasted some links relating the crew survivor's account.
"When the emergency lights were lit Ximena (FA) sensed that something was happening" said Erwin Tumiri.
?Cuando se prendieron las luces de emergencia Ximena presintió que algo pasaba? | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER
In ^ he also refuted the previous Radio journalist's report - says he never actually said that he got into foetal position etc.
And he also refuted the earlier report about panic:
http://correodelsur.com/seguridad/20...ilo-lamia.html
Whether he's believable or not is moot but note that he had only flown with LaMia on three occasions.
OTOH the first statement from FA Suarez suggests that she knew, before they crashed, that they had run out of fuel. You can read the post-rescue comments attributed to her here:
"El avión se apagó por completo antes de caer" | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER
OTOH the surviving journalist Henzel, here says the alarm was due to "turbulencia" and he was seated in "penultimate row".
http://eju.tv/2016/12/el-periodista-...ente-de-lamia/
Other updates
Co-pilot, Ovar Goytia, was not authorised to fly the Chapo charter, co-owner Rocha was meant to be flying. (Arrest warrant imminent for Rocha, his lawyer has confirmed his whereabouts.) Goytia had previously flown many of the football charters with LaMia and was also ex-FAB and according to his son, had "decades of flying experience."
re compensation offer from LaMia: USD 165K compensation per person offered to the families of the 71 people who died.
La absurda cifra que ofrece LAMIA para indemnizar a familiares de las víctimas del Chapecoense - eju.tv
Bolivian Defence Minister statement: "the fact that Lamia travelled with insufficient fuel to other countries shows that the company had it's influence beyond Bolivia." (This Minister has been throwing quite a few accusations around in the press re PF Quiroga's Father-in-law Pinto. )
re TAM. Opposition politicians increase pressure noting that TAM were also flying in contravention of ICAO rules, without valid insurance for some of their commercial flights and not all their planes were registered with the DGAC.
The last director of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGAC), Virgilio Pereira and previous incumbent Luis Coimbra, will be subpoenaed to testify. Press reports that the latter had refused to give LaMia it's operator license and then was sacked and replaced by Pereira whereupon the license was approved very quickly. ( All these organisations are governed through political appointments of ex-military men into powerful positions but I suppose it's a positive sign that currently the investigation is extending beyond middle management figures. )
"When the emergency lights were lit Ximena (FA) sensed that something was happening" said Erwin Tumiri.
?Cuando se prendieron las luces de emergencia Ximena presintió que algo pasaba? | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER
In ^ he also refuted the previous Radio journalist's report - says he never actually said that he got into foetal position etc.
And he also refuted the earlier report about panic:
The pilot only mentioned that we prepare for landing, we were not alarmed because the decline did was the type of movement to land. There was no panic or anything. The only detail was that the stewardess told me to fasten well, then something happened.
Whether he's believable or not is moot but note that he had only flown with LaMia on three occasions.
OTOH the first statement from FA Suarez suggests that she knew, before they crashed, that they had run out of fuel. You can read the post-rescue comments attributed to her here:
"El avión se apagó por completo antes de caer" | Noticias de Bolivia y el Mundo - EL DEBER
OTOH the surviving journalist Henzel, here says the alarm was due to "turbulencia" and he was seated in "penultimate row".
http://eju.tv/2016/12/el-periodista-...ente-de-lamia/
Other updates
Co-pilot, Ovar Goytia, was not authorised to fly the Chapo charter, co-owner Rocha was meant to be flying. (Arrest warrant imminent for Rocha, his lawyer has confirmed his whereabouts.) Goytia had previously flown many of the football charters with LaMia and was also ex-FAB and according to his son, had "decades of flying experience."
re compensation offer from LaMia: USD 165K compensation per person offered to the families of the 71 people who died.
La absurda cifra que ofrece LAMIA para indemnizar a familiares de las víctimas del Chapecoense - eju.tv
Bolivian Defence Minister statement: "the fact that Lamia travelled with insufficient fuel to other countries shows that the company had it's influence beyond Bolivia." (This Minister has been throwing quite a few accusations around in the press re PF Quiroga's Father-in-law Pinto. )
re TAM. Opposition politicians increase pressure noting that TAM were also flying in contravention of ICAO rules, without valid insurance for some of their commercial flights and not all their planes were registered with the DGAC.
The last director of the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGAC), Virgilio Pereira and previous incumbent Luis Coimbra, will be subpoenaed to testify. Press reports that the latter had refused to give LaMia it's operator license and then was sacked and replaced by Pereira whereupon the license was approved very quickly. ( All these organisations are governed through political appointments of ex-military men into powerful positions but I suppose it's a positive sign that currently the investigation is extending beyond middle management figures. )
Last edited by jess15; 16th Dec 2016 at 12:30. Reason: added one extra link
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Joss 15 > lots of BS in there .Journalists fishing or speculating to write something ( a bit like some of the posters here 
)
They reported LaMia has no cashflow , did not pay its staff last months, but LaMia now offering 165K per pax compensation? , and 3 lines later they were flying without insurance ?
and : " the fact that Lamia travelled with insufficient fuel to other countries shows that the company had it's influence beyond Bolivia"
What a lot of BS.
)They reported LaMia has no cashflow , did not pay its staff last months, but LaMia now offering 165K per pax compensation? , and 3 lines later they were flying without insurance ?
and : " the fact that Lamia travelled with insufficient fuel to other countries shows that the company had it's influence beyond Bolivia"
What a lot of BS.
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Since the disaster turned into a scandal, around 30.11., there appears to have been multiple forces at work. There's a blame game played out in the media, political in-fighting, a right-wing opposition who want to- rightly or wrongly-implicate the govt. at the highest levels, axes to grind, govt ministers calling out pilots as "murderers". Then there's lies (mixed with a few truths I assume), alongside a desire to minimise the scope of the investigation but be seen to be doing something, to avoid an FAA downgrade. Then throw into that mix the interests of Brazil & Colombia .
The lack of due process & the course of the official investigation may be piss-poor by our standards but I'm actually pretty impressed with the tenacity & quality of most of these Latin American papers when I compare it to UK equivalents and when I consider what they are up against.
So as the story has evolved you also have the Defence minister publicly asking - WHO paid for the insurance and who gave them the start-up capital?
LaMia's lawyer states that they have insurance cover for USD25million, journalists saying the individual offer is paltry.
Quiroga's wife & father claims the crew were not paid for months and that there were no secret financers.
They've reported Milton Claros ( minister public works) saying that LaMia company records showed LaMia had USD 16K on paper but according to Quiroga's family they were about to lease a fleet of 757s in 2017- clearly incompatible.
Which of those ^ are BS? Eeny, meeny, miny, moe
The lack of due process & the course of the official investigation may be piss-poor by our standards but I'm actually pretty impressed with the tenacity & quality of most of these Latin American papers when I compare it to UK equivalents and when I consider what they are up against.
So as the story has evolved you also have the Defence minister publicly asking - WHO paid for the insurance and who gave them the start-up capital?
LaMia's lawyer states that they have insurance cover for USD25million, journalists saying the individual offer is paltry.
Quiroga's wife & father claims the crew were not paid for months and that there were no secret financers.
They've reported Milton Claros ( minister public works) saying that LaMia company records showed LaMia had USD 16K on paper but according to Quiroga's family they were about to lease a fleet of 757s in 2017- clearly incompatible.
Which of those ^ are BS? Eeny, meeny, miny, moe
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Mickjoebill writes:
That Tumiri braced himself was said in early reports; in later interviews, he denied doing that, said there was no indication from the flight crew to the cabin that anything was amiss, the first indication being when the lights went off. At that point, he says he did "put on the harness", which I take to mean the shoulder harness on the crew seat (as he'd earlier said he had the belt fastened). So, no brace position, but he was somewhat better prepared than the others if he had a shoulder harnesss on.
Perhaps the fact that Erwin Tumiri, the flight engineer who is one of the two crew members who survived, had prepared himself for the crash, is an indication that more passengers could have survived if they had been warned?
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Do we know who was on the jump seat? Surely the third pilot rather than the engineer? His remarks seem to me to be based on observation from the cabin rather than the flight deck but it isn't too clear.
Once again poor translation and incorrect usage of English is muddying the waters. He was an aircraft engineer, not a flight engineer. For the benefit of those (many) here not au fait with aviation terminology this means he was ground maintenance personnel. NOT flight crew.
Once again poor translation and incorrect usage of English is muddying the waters. He was an aircraft engineer, not a flight engineer. For the benefit of those (many) here not au fait with aviation terminology this means he was ground maintenance personnel. NOT flight crew.
And, I wonder if he wasn't sitting with his back against the FD door bulkhead; or something similar.
That sort of arrangement might have had a very significant influence on his survival.
I have been lead to believe that one significant factor in deaths in accidents involving rapid deceleration (eg plane crash) is the tearing of the pericardium and the encapsulated heart from their internal anchoring, and that that is less likely to occur if the accident victim is seated facing away from the point of impact.
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Do we know who was on the jump seat? Surely the third pilot rather than the engineer? His remarks seem to me to be based on observation from the cabin rather than the flight deck but it isn't too clear.
Once again poor translation and incorrect usage of English is muddying the waters. He was an aircraft engineer, not a flight engineer. For the benefit of those (many) here not au fait with aviation terminology this means he was ground maintenance personnel. NOT flight crew.
Once again poor translation and incorrect usage of English is muddying the waters. He was an aircraft engineer, not a flight engineer. For the benefit of those (many) here not au fait with aviation terminology this means he was ground maintenance personnel. NOT flight crew.
With the same links, he describes his location at impact. With Suarez.
As yet, there is no further info, in any language, as to the location/role of the rest of the so-called "tripulacion" on this flight. There simply isn't the info out there- beyond Quiroga and we are now told Goytia may have been co-pilot. That's it.
Copiloto de LaMia no tenía autorización de vuelo | ATB Digital
Encina's wife has also already given (upthread) her understanding of why her pilot husband was on this flight.
Further links upthread also have an interview where Tumiri describes his role with detail and his history with LaMia - which in itself, he says, was very limited. He also referred to his exchange with the flight engineer about refuelling.
None of us can verify the contradictions in Tumiri's own recollections but we can note the discrepancies. Perhaps the reporter simply invented the "foetal... suitcases.... shouting" elements? Surely the default is: first read what is said without relying on a single bad translation; secondly treat everything with caution even if it comes out of the mouth of the Defence minister; third, appreciate that these events occur in a Bolivian context.
Doubtless, it'll still require the same approach even when the final report is released and when the legal cases are complete.
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Nice try Hoppy but it aint necessarily so. I assume you are suggesting an FE would not have let the flight depart. And nor would any of the many FE's that I had the pleasure of flying with. However a lot of people were involved in this LaMia fuel scam so I am not convinced that anybody would have been above reproach. Wasnt Tumiri the "FE" anyway when the aircraft was on the ground and therefore had the opportunity to alter events but evidently did not take it.
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There are versions of the ATC transcript recording that have been edited and are not reflective of real-time, beware. I have annotated MSL altitude versus UTC time with the transmissions from LMI2933. The information correlates well with the ADS-B reports.
Added to the blog entry
Satcom Guru: LMI2933 LAMIA AVRO RJ85 Medellín Deadstick
Added to the blog entry
Satcom Guru: LMI2933 LAMIA AVRO RJ85 Medellín Deadstick
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Lemme , while I am impressed by your talents , playing home-made accident investigator can be dangerous for other people, especially when you appear " an expert" to the public and journalists that might take your version of events as established facts.
An example here on your beautiful graphs is you separate the aircraft transmissions from those of ATC , inducing to the non-professional the idea that the pilot was in distress requesting assistance ( vectores, vecrores Senorita.." ) and got no responses..
But even if you do include the ATC transmissions , they will be misleading unless you add that a controller can only give vectors if/when he/she actually sees the aircrfat position on radar. This was not the case , as she states she lost him ( whether due terrain or loss of electric on transponder still needs to be established )
Accident analysis it is a bit more complex that just taking You tube videos and Flight radar 24.
Finally ,as you said there are different VHF/ATC transcripts around, and the exact time stamps will be critical to establish the actual sequence of events.
Speculating of what might have happened is what we all do here, nothing wrong with that , but playing amateur incident investigator delivering home made " facts" is playing with fire. .
Before posting things , think of the effect this will have on the surviving people , the air traffic controller on duty and the families of the victims if you get it wrong.
An example here on your beautiful graphs is you separate the aircraft transmissions from those of ATC , inducing to the non-professional the idea that the pilot was in distress requesting assistance ( vectores, vecrores Senorita.." ) and got no responses..
But even if you do include the ATC transmissions , they will be misleading unless you add that a controller can only give vectors if/when he/she actually sees the aircrfat position on radar. This was not the case , as she states she lost him ( whether due terrain or loss of electric on transponder still needs to be established )
Accident analysis it is a bit more complex that just taking You tube videos and Flight radar 24.
Finally ,as you said there are different VHF/ATC transcripts around, and the exact time stamps will be critical to establish the actual sequence of events.
Speculating of what might have happened is what we all do here, nothing wrong with that , but playing amateur incident investigator delivering home made " facts" is playing with fire. .
Before posting things , think of the effect this will have on the surviving people , the air traffic controller on duty and the families of the victims if you get it wrong.