Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

[foresight]

The president of Bolivia, Evo Morales, claims he was unaware the LaMia was a Bolivian company with permission to operate in Bolivia. There is footage on YouTube of Morales on the very aircraft in question, with the crew. One photo shows him seated in the aircraft next to the young flight attendant who survived.

There appears to be an arrangement between LaMia and CONMEBOL which is likely a chummy deal made with people high up in the Bolivian government.
There is a conflict of interest between the Bolivian aviation authority and LaMia which has been mentioned in several posts.

Celia Casteda is a very minor civil servant. Like many thousands of such women in Latin America, she has done a poorly paid government job for thirty years which gives her security and a pension. She almost certainly got the job because she knew someone who knew someone who knew someone else etc. She won't be well educated.
I believe she went as far as she could without jeopardising her job -and probably her families security and future.
Most of all, to her superiors, she is utterly expendable.
Hopefully her union will fight tooth and nail for her. However union officials can be bought off and will themselves have close links to members of the government.
It seems inevitable that LaMia flight 2933 will claim another victim.
A lot of guilty people are going to get off scot free.

I don't know Bolivia, but I am very familiar with other Latin American countries and have family and many friends there. This is all horribly familiar.

[vintage ATCO]

vmandr

Think of atc as 'traffic police'. they are there to enforce regulations.

I spent 40 years in ATC in the UK, I was never a policeman. I was there to prevent collisions.

ARO is -usually- part of ATC which enforces ICAO and country rules and regs.

So ARO has executive authority.

They are not policeman either.

Often though to avoid arguing with 'pussy' pilots or dispatchers, they just call the GND/TWR controller, very difficult to be reached, and when clearance is requested, the involved are informed of the ATS rejection of that flight plan. If the individual still persist, police follows...

Tosh in the UK

Mere FPL submission, does not make it a 'guarantee' the flight will operate.
IFPS in Europe rejects dozen 'wrong' FPLs every day.

For routeing/traffic reasons. Nothing else.

[SteinarN]

@lemme

Very impressive first post with the interesting analysis you had in your link at #616

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by SteinarN

@lemme

Very impressive first post with the interesting analysis you had in your link at #616

I agree.

Here's a link to Peter's analysis:

Satcom Guru: LMI2933 LAMIA AVRO RJ85 Medellín Deadstick

[Prober]

Sticking to the rules

Some (many) years ago now I was involved in a ‘fill-in’ contract in that part of the world. Though years have passed, I very much doubt that any attitudes have changed. The reason for our contract had some resonance with this fiasco. One became used to being given no freight and x passengers at check-in. Subsequently seeing mounds of freight being loaded and the cabin chief saying x (minus 7 or 8) all strapped in. Any queries would be met by a very disinterested shrug of the shoulders. Load sheet copies were dumped in the bin and tech log copies often followed. The XAA came to examine the operation and as a result – wait for it – we all learned the Spanish phrase ‘ayer de ante’ (excuse spelling – it was a long time ago) – which means ‘the day before yesterday’. This was required so that we could log the previous duties of the cabin crew, for the absence of which we were berated as if we were simpletons. Maybe we were! Quel surprise!!!:
Prober

[The AvgasDinosaur]

Thanks everyone for a remarkably erudite thread. None of the hyperbole and aggression sometimes found on here.
Could someone with greater mathematical skills and RJ experience than I please tell me how close the actual endurance of the flight was compared to the 4h 22min on the flight plan?
In still air what is the absolute endurance of an RJ 85 (in theory).
Could some of the hangers on/ acolytes have been off loaded to lift more fuel or were the tanks at limits ?
Thanks for your time and trouble
Be lucky
David

[noflynomore]

I know it's not part of one's LPC, but surely aircrew do occasionally 'play' in the sim and have a go at completing an all-engine-out forced landing.

What company do you work for, fer fuggsake? Are you seriously telling us your Co does not train all engines out/glide approaches scenarios in the sim?

You claim to be from Yorkshire and thus UK CAA!!!

Is this possible???

I am simply gobsmacked if you are not required to do this. It has been an occasional part of my recurrent for two decades at least!


AV Dinosaur. The fuel endurance quoted appears to be at or very close to the absolute limit to dry tanks for a RJ85.
What seems more to the point is what payload could it legally carry with this amount of fuel, and how this figure fits with the number of pax and their baggage that was on board.

There may well be some discrepancy. (!!!)

There are plenty of people here who can supply typical APS and structural MTOW weights for such an RJ, (indeed for this exact RJ) and others who can supply a RTOW for the runway involved if it applies. So far this critical info has, rather surprisingly, not appeared.

Perhaps it is time it should.

[RAT 5]

What company do you work for, fer fuggsake? Are you seriously telling us your Co does not train all engines out/glide approaches scenarios in the sim?

Indeed. After BA B777 & Sully both scenarios appeared in recurrency training for a few moments. 'Have a go' is not training. That was how many years ago? Not seen before and not since: and as short visuals are discouraged/forbidden on line the day to day handling skills are weak anyway. There are the enlightened airlines and there are those who will not see. It really is the luck of the draw who you fly for as a pilot and who the pax will rely upon on that once in a lifetime moment. Standards, above minimum for LPC, are not common across the industry; sadly.

[sierra5913]

TV Crew filming just before flight

I don't know if its been posted on here already but here it is anyway

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=32b_1480556495
Both pilots interviewed. Soccer team boarding at the time.

3 stripe commander in the LHS, 2 stripe FO in the cabin.

[Fris B. Fairing]

There are plenty of people here who can supply typical APS and structural MTOW weights for such an RJ, (indeed for this exact RJ) and others who can supply a RTOW for the runway involved if it applies. So far this critical info has, rather surprisingly, not appeared.

Perhaps it is time it should.

Several posts have expressed interest in sighting a copy of the loadsheet. Given the conduct of this flight, are we naive in assuming that there was a loadsheet?

[IanWorthington]

Originally Posted by noflynomore

Poor Celia. She did her best, more I daresay than many would do and gets hung out to dry simply for being the lowest ranking pèon still standing.
What an uncivilised way to behave, eh?

It is absolutely BAU here in Colombia to push responsibility for /anything/ down to the weakest person in the chain. I would anticipate that Bolivia would be no different.

[CYTN]

Brasil, lunes 5 de diciembre (ATB Digital).- Celia Castedo Monasterio, funcionaria de Aasana e involucrada en el caso del accidente del avión LaMia, buscó información sobre refugio en la Policía Federal y en el Ministerio Público Federal (MPF) de Corumbá, Brasil.

Alrededor de las 8:00 de hoy, Castedo buscó esta información en el Departamento Federal de Inmigración de la Policía de Brasil acompañada de su abogado. Luego se fue al Ministerio Público Federal (MPF), según informa el portal de la cadena Globo.

La fiscal del MPF, Gabriela Tavares, confirmó la presencia de un funcionario de la Aasana (Administración de Aeropuertos Auxiliares a la Navegación Aérea) y de su abogado.

El Departamento de Cooperación Internacional del Procurador General de la Oficina, en coordinación con el fiscal en Corumbá, ciudad de Mato Grosso del Sur que limita con Bolivia, “pedirá a las agencias federales competentes tomen las medidas adecuadas, en consonancia con las normas internacionales y la ley brasileña”, dice Globo.

Castedo tiene en su contra una denuncia penal en por incumplimiento de deberes y atentado contra la seguridad de los transportes, pues ella es la oficial de Aro Ais (encargada de la revisión de los planes de vuelo) que autorizó la documentación de LaMia en el aeropuerto Viru Viru. Horas después, este avión sufrió un accidente que costó la vida a 71 fallecidos, la mayoría del club Chapecoense.#

TRANSLATE
Brazil, Monday, December 5 (ATB Digital) .- Celia Castedo Monasterio, an employee of Aasana and involved in the case of the LaMia plane crash, sought information on refuge in the Federal Police and the Federal Public Ministry (MPF) in Corumbá, Brazil.

Around 8:00 today, Castedo sought this information in the Federal Immigration Department of the Brazilian Police accompanied by his lawyer. Then he went to the Federal Public Prosecutor's Office (MPF), according to the portal of the Globo network.

MPF prosecutor Gabriela Tavares confirmed the presence of an official of the Aasana (Airport Administration Auxiliary to Air Navigation) and her lawyer.

The Department of International Cooperation of the Attorney General of the Office, in coordination with the prosecutor in Corumbá, a border city of Mato Grosso del Sur bordering Bolivia, "will request the appropriate federal agencies to take appropriate measures, in accordance with international standards and The Brazilian law, "says Globo.

Castedo has a criminal complaint against her for breach of duties and violation of the safety of transport, as she is the official of Aro Ais (responsible for the revision of the flight plans) that authorized LaMia documentation at the airport Viru Viru. Hours later, this plane suffered an accident that cost the life to 71 deceased, the majority of the Chapecoense club

[peekay4]

Think of atc as 'traffic police'. they are there to enforce regulations.

I can only say that most major ATC & Flight Planning systems around the world do not check the "endurance" field against regulatory requirements. Only simple syntax and semantic checks are performed. ATC is not there to enforce regulations. That's the job of the regulator (XAA).

[chuks]

I did get total engine failures in the sim, but only as an extra when we had some time left over after putting ticks in all the boxes on a normal two-hour session of recurrent training. It's not something thought of as likely to happen, I suppose.

I didn't mess it up, but I never got any brief on how to handle that problem, no de-brief on how I did handle it, and no feedback from any other pilot on whether he also had been given a total engine failure, so that this was not taken seriously.

Basically you need to know your approximate speed for max L/D and then figure out how to position the aircraft on finals with enough height to make the runway, but not so much that you will over-run it, preferably in the landing configuration. That's basic airmanship, something not necessarily taught later during sim training. Try not to be "gobsmacked" that expensive sim time is not used to teach the basics; that is not what it's meant for.

When we get the report on this crash, expect to read that the accident crew probably had enough height to have made it to the runway even with all four engines out, if only they had known how to manage that. The thing is, though, someone with that level of skill probably would not have put himself in a situation where he needed to do that!

[dsc810]

Interesting development....
Allegedly Celia has sought "refuge" in Brazil
So I guess she managed to slip across the border unnoticed and is going to claim asylum
https://translate.google.co.uk/trans...il&prev=search

[sabenaboy]

Originally Posted by vintage ATCO

vmandr

Quote:

Think of atc as 'traffic police'. they are there to enforce regulations.

I spent 40 years in ATC in the UK, I was never a policeman. I was there to prevent collisions.

Quote:

ARO is -usually- part of ATC which enforces ICAO and country rules and regs.

So ARO has executive authority.

They are not policeman either.

Quote:

Often though to avoid arguing with 'pussy' pilots or dispatchers, they just call the GND/TWR controller, very difficult to be reached, and when clearance is requested, the involved are informed of the ATS rejection of that flight plan. If the individual still persist, police follows...

Tosh in the UK

Quote:

Mere FPL submission, does not make it a 'guarantee' the flight will operate.
IFPS in Europe rejects dozen 'wrong' FPLs every day.

For routeing/traffic reasons. Nothing else.

Vintage ATCO is correct. Blaming this ARO lady is ridiculous. Many people should expect to be punished in this case, but Celia shoild NOT be one of them. The captain/owner is the main culprit. He has already received the death penalty. It's just sad that he took 70 other people with him.

[MartinM]

Indeed. The captain and the dispatcher has been found guilty for the deliberate killing of 71 people. The sentence to death has already been executed.

Asides from this, neither the ARO lady nor the ATC lady in Medellin are guilty for anything. They did their job.

[testpanel]

From the washingtonpost:

LA PAZ, Bolivia — The airline involved in last week’s crash in the Andes left a trail of unpaid bills that forced Bolivia’s air force to seize two planes and briefly jail one of the company’s owners, Bolivian Defense Minister Reymi Ferreira said Monday.

[chuks]

Don't you suppose that the accident flight crew did not have a Plan B? Plan A probably was to arrive in a critically low fuel state, get cleared for a straight-in approach, and land with just enough fuel to taxi to the stand on two engines. Sorted!

Plan B would have meant figuring out how to cope with being put Number Three for the approach with instructions to hold: an unforeseen yet easily foreseeable situation.

There were various options available, but none seem to have been thought of, let alone used. Most basically, to have just told ATC what the problem was, declaring an emergency in good time, would probably have worked just fine in terms of landing safely.

The ironic thing is that Plan A must have been highly illegal, although it probably would have avoided trouble for the flight crew. Plan B, on the other hand, would have been perfectly legal: to declare an emergency because of a critically low fuel state, to get cleared for a straight-in approach, and to land, but with trouble almost sure to follow.

From that point, having landed safely, the flight crew might have been in a whole lot of trouble, since it might have been quite clear that the flight had been using Plan A, an arrival with almost no fuel.

Something I have seen and experienced is an escalation of risk bringing a feeling, a false one, of increased safety. That is because of what might happen becoming catastrophic, becoming literally unimaginable.

In this situation there would have been the imaginable risk to the crew of being ramp-checked, interrogated about how they came to arrive with far too little fuel, compared to the unimaginable risk of crashing the aircraft and killing themselves and most of those aboard. The imaginable risk was being avoided by courting the unimaginable risk, so to speak.

It's sort of like running from the cops by crossing six lanes of motorway traffic. If you stand there, they've surely got you; if you run you might get away with doing that. Some people go for the unimaginable risk over the imaginable risk then; it's human nature to do so, but something a pilot is supposedly trained to avoid doing.

[portmanteau]

Vivacolombia (FC8170) was given priority to land although he had not declared an emergency. Lamia was delayed 13 minutes in the hold while he and Avianca (AV 9356) beneath him, waited for 8170 (beneath both aircraft) to arrive at RNG VOR and continue on the ILS to land. No radar control seems to have occurred which might have reduced the waiting time.