Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
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@Surplus1
a. not missing,
b. we know the addressees
i read, GG SLVRYGYF SLVRYGYE SLVRYGYF (herself being ZSLRZPZX ) message sent 29 Nov 1650 utc
for more on AFTN codes check [URL = http://dcaa.trafikstyrelsen.dk:8000/...20no%20149.PDF [/URL]
The header of Celia's alleged memos is missing so, we don't know to whom it was addressed.
b. we know the addressees
i read, GG SLVRYGYF SLVRYGYE SLVRYGYF (herself being ZSLRZPZX ) message sent 29 Nov 1650 utc
for more on AFTN codes check [URL = http://dcaa.trafikstyrelsen.dk:8000/...20no%20149.PDF [/URL]
SkyGod
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. Do I read that headline right? The crew bodies have been returned to Bolivia as "heroes" , unbelievable
Those guys were cowards, they did not do the right thing when they realized fuel would be low/non-existent: Decleare an emergency, land at the nearest suitable airport and take the consequences of poor flight and fuel planning from the beginning, and long before they got close to Rio Negro.
They literally murdered passengers and crew members.
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This may be naive , but would it make sense from a policy perspective to reward airlines who regularly land above fuel mins, such as w tax breaks and so on. Yes, I realize multiple govts may be involved....but say x% tax break for y% landings above mins.
Carrot not stick IOW. Reward safety.
We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
Carrot not stick IOW. Reward safety.
We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
Drain Bamaged
This may be naive , but would it make sense from a policy perspective to reward airlines who regularly land above fuel mins, such as w tax breaks and so on. Yes, I realize multiple govts may be involved....but say x% tax break for y% landings above mins.
Carrot not stick IOW. Reward safety.
We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
Carrot not stick IOW. Reward safety.
We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
Rules are made to instil discipline and more or less protect the dumb from themselves.
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PR6driver.... From belo Horizonte... for commercial aviation taking in to account runway length,fire services etc, two airports in rio de janeiro... santos dumont and Galeao (the longest runway) though both have some high ground between them and BH. There are also Vitoria and Pampulha.... all of which you could get to and be on the ground within 40 minutes from the hold at BH
SkyGod
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Yeah, a bit naive.
To reward airlines for following the rules could backfire: No reward, no fuel..
In the past some airlines kept track of fuel burn for each Captain and gave bonuses to those who burned less fuel. One way of burning less is to load less fuel.
Several airplanes had to divert to other airports than the destination for low fuel and costing the airlines more than they saved.
I am not aware of any airlines these days having similar programs.
I was singled out once for burning more fuel than the other Captains over a 3 month period and asked about it. Told them I deviated around weather, started early descents and had plenty fuel for contingencies. Cost of doing business Gentlemen..
Flown into Medellin and Santa Cruz many times with plenty of holding, not the places to fly on fumes.
No idea what these guys were thinking(
To reward airlines for following the rules could backfire: No reward, no fuel..
In the past some airlines kept track of fuel burn for each Captain and gave bonuses to those who burned less fuel. One way of burning less is to load less fuel.
Several airplanes had to divert to other airports than the destination for low fuel and costing the airlines more than they saved.
I am not aware of any airlines these days having similar programs.
I was singled out once for burning more fuel than the other Captains over a 3 month period and asked about it. Told them I deviated around weather, started early descents and had plenty fuel for contingencies. Cost of doing business Gentlemen..
Flown into Medellin and Santa Cruz many times with plenty of holding, not the places to fly on fumes.
No idea what these guys were thinking
(
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"I thought S.Americans could be more assertive. We've seen this cockpit gradient problem in the Far East & SE Asia, but S.America?"
You obviously haven't paid any attention to, for example, Geert Hofstede's work on Power Distance. South American countries have some of the highest ratings on this scale, just as high as many Asian countries. A high Power Distance rating basically means it's extremely difficult for subordinates to challenge the person in charge in any given situation.
https://geert-hofstede.com/national-culture.html
You obviously haven't paid any attention to, for example, Geert Hofstede's work on Power Distance. South American countries have some of the highest ratings on this scale, just as high as many Asian countries. A high Power Distance rating basically means it's extremely difficult for subordinates to challenge the person in charge in any given situation.
https://geert-hofstede.com/national-culture.html
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I am retired too after some 40 years of flying, but still do know the difference between accident and criminal imprudence.
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Better still;
...pass a successful audit of their operation, by allowing them to continue on for another 3/6/9/12months.
(assuming that the local authority were sufficiently professional, and not simply rubber-stamping)
would it make sense from a policy perspective to reward airlines who regularly...
(assuming that the local authority were sufficiently professional, and not simply rubber-stamping)
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Bolivian president Evo Morales said in a news conference that he didn't know that LaMia had authorization nor that it was a Bolivian registered carrier, then a video shows him boarding the same plane 15 days earlier.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0yjUk3rM68
One thing to consider too is how up to date the owner operator was.
He had his crew flying the light weights, but when the chance of showing off his company was presented he sure did jumped into the left seat.
Landing in Bogotá was not an option for him, he knew that it will represent a delay of more than 3 hours at best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0yjUk3rM68
One thing to consider too is how up to date the owner operator was.
He had his crew flying the light weights, but when the chance of showing off his company was presented he sure did jumped into the left seat.
Landing in Bogotá was not an option for him, he knew that it will represent a delay of more than 3 hours at best.
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I am Currently in Acre in Brazil.... just read a very interesting article from an interview with the captains family... posting from my phone, so will sumarize... later I will dig out the article post a link and translate the relevant parts. The gist is the family are saying that it is ""cruel" and "hirtful" to blame the captain as he was a good father and "honorable" man...... no here is the chilling/intering to analyse part.....when the captain of the LaMia flight his father (also a pilot) had a severe accident resulting in amnesia, disfiguration, broken bones, height loss due to a compressed spine and one leg becoming longer than the other.... as a child the LaMia captain always wanted to be a pilot and his father often asked "but why? Don't you have fear? Haven't you seen what happened to me?" To which he always replied "father, I have no fear, this will never happen to me". I was deeply troubled when I read that.
The journal is called "Pagina 20" as I said, I'll find a link when I get to the hotel
The journal is called "Pagina 20" as I said, I'll find a link when I get to the hotel
Psychophysiological entity
We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
Naive perhaps I know .....
Police handing out plus marks? They tried that for a while in the UK. I'm not sure you got any free points out of it.
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I know of at least one very senior British training captain who routinely browbeat inexperienced FO's into operating with fuel well below plog.
I do to wish to deviate from this topic, but... if this muppet 'routinely' operated thus, then more than you knew about it. Therefore one has to assume whispers float upwards and were perhaps ignored. How can anyone, legally, operate well below plog? Certainly not on departure; so one has to suspect it was continuing en-route. 2 RWYs at LHR & LGW round the corner?
And so back to Lamia. If this behaviour was a regular occurrence someone other than FLT crew must have known and one assumes whispers float about and reach relevant ears. Were those deaf for a reason?
I'm still waiting to hear the details of the F/O. Rank & experience. The CVR could be mind blowing, either way. Much screaming/pleading from RHS or silence.
I do to wish to deviate from this topic, but... if this muppet 'routinely' operated thus, then more than you knew about it. Therefore one has to assume whispers float upwards and were perhaps ignored. How can anyone, legally, operate well below plog? Certainly not on departure; so one has to suspect it was continuing en-route. 2 RWYs at LHR & LGW round the corner?
And so back to Lamia. If this behaviour was a regular occurrence someone other than FLT crew must have known and one assumes whispers float about and reach relevant ears. Were those deaf for a reason?
I'm still waiting to hear the details of the F/O. Rank & experience. The CVR could be mind blowing, either way. Much screaming/pleading from RHS or silence.
SkyGod
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. either way. Much screaming/pleading from RHS or silence.
In this case the last resort was not utilized, too bad...
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"I thought S.Americans could be more assertive. We've seen this cockpit gradient problem in the Far East & SE Asia, but S.America?"
You obviously haven't paid any attention to, for example, Geert Hofstede's work on Power Distance. South American countries have some of the highest ratings on this scale, just as high as many Asian countries. A high Power Distance rating basically means it's extremely difficult for subordinates to challenge the person in charge in any given situation.
https://geert-hofstede.com/national-culture.html
You obviously haven't paid any attention to, for example, Geert Hofstede's work on Power Distance. South American countries have some of the highest ratings on this scale, just as high as many Asian countries. A high Power Distance rating basically means it's extremely difficult for subordinates to challenge the person in charge in any given situation.
https://geert-hofstede.com/national-culture.html
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Someone going a little light on reserve, the "not quite enough holding contingency" for Heathrow kind of thing, sure, people have thought about that, hence the (local LHR) rules about no priority without declaring emergency, etc. But how could ATC or whoever accepts the flight plan check for slightly low fuel/reserves/contingency? They can't confirm the actual fuel upload and payload nor access fuel burn data for each type / engine combination / variation.
This case is something way beyond that of course. No one would ever expect someone to ever plan only just enough fuel. I expect even Celia thought they'd just miscalculated and didn't want to bother redoing the task, not that they truly were doing what they turned out to be doing.
Last edited by YRP; 5th Dec 2016 at 01:59. Reason: Spelling, clarity, grammar
My suspicion is that they had figured out some cute trick to eke out a little bit more range: shutting down a couple engines, using Andean wave – Lord only knows
Worked just fine until being put into a hold
As for the people receiving flight plans, they do not have performance and fuel consumption charts for every aircraft on Earth to verify the crew won't run dry before destination.
Worked just fine until being put into a hold
As for the people receiving flight plans, they do not have performance and fuel consumption charts for every aircraft on Earth to verify the crew won't run dry before destination.
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In the name of safety, would it be wiser to not penalize (at least legally) a pilot for calling a Mayday for low fuel, even when he's done something stupid to get himself into that position? It might be more effective to do random spot checks of aircraft after landing, and penalize anyone who is found to be below minimums and who has NOT called a Mayday.
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The following is an excerpt from an Associated Press article. Obviously I can't certify everything reported is accurate, but many consider the AP among the more reputable news sources. Whether "low bidder" actually was the sole reason for hiring LaMia (or whether there was a "recommendation" or "other consideration") is beyond the scope of the article.
AFA hired firm to fly Argentine team without knowing plane
By LUIS ANDRES HENAO
Associated Press
Dec 2, 2016
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) -- Argentina's Football Association hired a company that charters flights to transport superstar Lionel Messi and the rest of the national team for a World Cup qualifying game without knowing the name of the airline or the model of the plane, an official said Friday.
The plane was the same British Aerospace 146 Avro RJ85 jet operated by Bolivia-based charter company LaMia that later crashed in Colombia, killing 71 people, including most of a Brazilian soccer team.
Argentine Football Association spokesman Miguel Hirsch said Friday the AFA was forced to look for options for a roundtrip Buenos Aires-Belo Horizonte flight after the plane they often use from the Andes airline was sent for technical revisions.
The Associated Press had access to offer sheets that six companies presented.
None mentioned the name of the airline.
But the one that the AFA's national team department chose for $99,000 was the cheapest one and the only one that did not provide the model of the plane.
The second least expensive offer was about $3,000 less. [Note: that probably should read "$3,000 more"]
"I suppose that since the AFA is going through financial troubles, it was a question of costs," Hirsch said in an interview with The AP.
By LUIS ANDRES HENAO
Associated Press
Dec 2, 2016
BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) -- Argentina's Football Association hired a company that charters flights to transport superstar Lionel Messi and the rest of the national team for a World Cup qualifying game without knowing the name of the airline or the model of the plane, an official said Friday.
The plane was the same British Aerospace 146 Avro RJ85 jet operated by Bolivia-based charter company LaMia that later crashed in Colombia, killing 71 people, including most of a Brazilian soccer team.
Argentine Football Association spokesman Miguel Hirsch said Friday the AFA was forced to look for options for a roundtrip Buenos Aires-Belo Horizonte flight after the plane they often use from the Andes airline was sent for technical revisions.
The Associated Press had access to offer sheets that six companies presented.
None mentioned the name of the airline.
But the one that the AFA's national team department chose for $99,000 was the cheapest one and the only one that did not provide the model of the plane.
The second least expensive offer was about $3,000 less. [Note: that probably should read "$3,000 more"]
"I suppose that since the AFA is going through financial troubles, it was a question of costs," Hirsch said in an interview with The AP.