Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
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It is now clear that the aircraft simply run out of fuel, as others have from time to time. So the issue now must be how could this been allowed to happen.
The answer is to be found in Pseudo Pro`s post No.329 above, not bad for his first posting on Pprune. It represents damning evidence, the fact that EET and Endurance was questioned, but nothing was done about it. It is inevitable that some very serious further questions will follow. Such as given the glaring shortcomings of such a FP, why was it not rejected. In accepting the FP what sort of responsibility is shared by the air traffic service provider. Should they have been more insistent, should they have rejected it unless it demonstrated compliance with safety requirements. How can it be denied that the purpose of greater endurance than time en route is for no more than safety.
It would seem somebody was leaning on the dispatcher and he in turn was leaning on the hapless Ms. Monasterio.
It would appear the die was cast on the night of 21st November, seven days before the crash when the clock started ticking at 20:40
The answer is to be found in Pseudo Pro`s post No.329 above, not bad for his first posting on Pprune. It represents damning evidence, the fact that EET and Endurance was questioned, but nothing was done about it. It is inevitable that some very serious further questions will follow. Such as given the glaring shortcomings of such a FP, why was it not rejected. In accepting the FP what sort of responsibility is shared by the air traffic service provider. Should they have been more insistent, should they have rejected it unless it demonstrated compliance with safety requirements. How can it be denied that the purpose of greater endurance than time en route is for no more than safety.
It would seem somebody was leaning on the dispatcher and he in turn was leaning on the hapless Ms. Monasterio.
It would appear the die was cast on the night of 21st November, seven days before the crash when the clock started ticking at 20:40
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Fate is the hunter. So, if the story is true of course, this catastrophe began with a player misplacing his video game, from which point the holes in the cheese slowly began to align.
Nightstop:
So true!
You would never believe someone claiming to be an 8,000 hour captain would tell you they believed fuel falls down to the lower wing when holding, now would you??!!!
Presumably the only way they ended up in the LHS was because they were in a hold to the left for too long and they just fell over to that side in the turn...
True, unfortunately this thread attracts comments from the Ignorant..some of whom are pilots (maybe).
You would never believe someone claiming to be an 8,000 hour captain would tell you they believed fuel falls down to the lower wing when holding, now would you??!!!
Presumably the only way they ended up in the LHS was because they were in a hold to the left for too long and they just fell over to that side in the turn...
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The sad thing about this incident is that the one positive aspect of the crisis, namely the fact that the chances of a crash landing without loss of life due to the lack of fuel meaning that there wouldn't be an explosion, wasn't taken advantage of. I assume that a landing on relatively flat terrain would have given a pretty good chance of people surviving with there being no chance of a explosion due to the exhaustion of fuel compared to if there had been fuel.
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Originally Posted by deadheader 
Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
...
Re the planned fuel stop in Cobija:
Was there another/original flight plan filed other than the leaked one?
Did this original flight plan, if it exists, include any alternatives to Cobija?
...
http://www.eltiempo.com/politica/jus...oquia/16764039
Last edited by patowalker; 2nd Dec 2016 at 21:46.
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So, apparently the spokesman for LAMIA, Mário Pacheco, has come forward blaming the bolivian DGAC government agency for the accident.
"
Empresa aérea de tragédia da Chape culpa órgăo boliviano por pane seca - 02/12/2016 - Esporte - Folha de S.Paulo
"The correct decision is to comply with whats established on the norms and regulations and on the company procedures", said Pacheco. Now, if they deviate, it's not a decision that can be controlled along the flight. The one who has to control this is the flight authority, as it is done on other countries, in which they control the remaining fuel the aircrafts should arrive with. The company is not told to do that. We didn't even had the means, there were to few people working on the airplane.
Empresa aérea de tragédia da Chape culpa órgăo boliviano por pane seca - 02/12/2016 - Esporte - Folha de S.Paulo
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The aircraft didn't have GPS when it flew for CityJet, and I'd be surprised if it had been retrofitted, so the ADS-B position reports will be from an inertial source.
That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
From a Boeing article:
Navigation satellites send precise timing information that allows airplanes equipped with global navigation satellite system (GNSS) or GPS receivers to determine their own position and velocity. Airplanes equipped with ADS-B out broadcast precise position and velocity to ground ADS-B receivers and to other airplanes via a digital datalink (1090 megahertz) along with other data, such as the airplane’s flight number and emergency status.
From an FAA page on ADS-B installations:
An ADS-B Out transmitter alone will not be sufficient to meet the requirements outlined in 14 CFR 91.227. To comply with the requirements for the ADS-B Rule, the aircraft must be equipped with a Version 2 ADS-B Out transmitter and a compatible GPS Position Source.
I realize that this wasn't a Boeing flown under FAA rules but I've flown with legacy airliner installations where the ADS-B and TCAS had GPS but the FMS did not.
Originally Posted by Patowalker
The FPL that reached the Colombian authorities showed the flight departing from Cobijas. They only learnt it had departed from Santa Cruz when it was already in Colombian airspace.
Could somebody with access to an ARJ flight planning system run these two flights through it so we get fuel burn and EET for both? This might be interesting.
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Strictly speaking ADS-B does not require GPS / GNSS. But practically speaking, a WAAS GPS system is the "easiest" way to comply with ADS-B's performance requirements.
Many ADS-B systems are sold / installed with integrated GPS receivers. So it is not necessary to retrofit the aircraft's legacy NAV system just to have ADS-B Out.
The two systems could remain independent of each other: one system for navigation, one system for position reporting. (And there could be significant deltas between them).
1nm error is well outside the limits specified for ADS-B. The position limit is 0.05nm with an integrity bubble of 0.2nm. These requirements can be tough to meet using legacy inertial or RNAV sources, which is why most ADS-B retrofits will include GPS instead.
Many ADS-B systems are sold / installed with integrated GPS receivers. So it is not necessary to retrofit the aircraft's legacy NAV system just to have ADS-B Out.
The two systems could remain independent of each other: one system for navigation, one system for position reporting. (And there could be significant deltas between them).
That's supported by the fact that the coordinates sent as it turned onto the runway at Viru Viru were offset by approximately 1 nm SSE, so it's likely that at least that much error will apply to the subsequent ADS-B track.
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Fuel flow in turns
You would never believe someone claiming to be an 8,000 hour captain would tell you they believed fuel falls down to the lower wing when holding, now would you??!!!
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So just to make it clear, the flight was planned to take 4:22 from Cobijas to Medellín, using up all its endurance? This smells a bit like they were lucky to even make it to the holding, seeing that they departed way further south than that.
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The sad thing about this incident is that the one positive aspect of the crisis, namely the fact that the chances of a crash landing without loss of life due to the lack of fuel meaning that there wouldn't be an explosion, wasn't taken advantage of. I assume that a landing on relatively flat terrain would have given a pretty good chance of people surviving with there being no chance of a explosion due to the exhaustion of fuel compared to if there had been fuel.
😫
ADS-B doesn't have specific limits - the spec accommodates a wide range of accuracy and integrity levels, which is why every position transmission includes a parameter (NUCp) that identifies the level that applies to the data.
Specific ADS-B implementations can require a minimum NUCp - the Hudson Bay ADS-B-mandatory airspace, for example, requires a minumum NUCp of 5, for example, so inertial-based ADS-B won't normally meet that criterion (but it still satisfies the ADS-B spec).
Thr LAMIA RJ85 had ADS-B, but would not have been allowed to fly in US airspace under NextGen rules.
DRUK
"The LAMIA RJ85 had ADS-B, but would not have been allowed to fly in US airspace under NextGen rules."
Agreed re ADS-B -- but it also would not likely be allowed to fly in the USA (or many other countries) for a whole host of other reasons too...
"The LAMIA RJ85 had ADS-B, but would not have been allowed to fly in US airspace under NextGen rules."
Agreed re ADS-B -- but it also would not likely be allowed to fly in the USA (or many other countries) for a whole host of other reasons too...
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In addition to the bogus flight plan would there be many other SOPs skipped or ignored? Wondering if this a/c had a CVR capacity long enough to record the pre-flight briefing, cross checks, fuel warnings, QRH call outs. There is far more here than fail to plan, plan to fail.
Every pilot has experienced delays due to wx or traffic or whatever - to go without necessary fuel is Russian roulette.
Every pilot has experienced delays due to wx or traffic or whatever - to go without necessary fuel is Russian roulette.
Reports suggest 21 Journalists or photographers were on board.
Only one survived.
There are 40 people in the team photograph taken outside the aircraft, presumably they were. players trainers and support staff.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....?client=safari
Mickjoebill
Only one survived.
There are 40 people in the team photograph taken outside the aircraft, presumably they were. players trainers and support staff.
https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp....?client=safari
Mickjoebill
Last edited by mickjoebill; 3rd Dec 2016 at 02:44.