Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
Apparently, in the late 90's MH pilots were pressured to carry as little fuel as possible to save money. I presume this no longer happens with the majors.
"Pressured" might not be the right word but where I am we get regular reminders about carrying extra fuel and we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...
That said I've never had a decision to carry extra fuel decision queried.
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Quote:
I am proposing this crowd funding to go entirely to the controller that dealt so very professionally with 2 emergencies at Medellin one of which, through negligence, resulted in the deaths of many people.
I am proposing this crowd funding to go entirely to the controller that dealt so very professionally with 2 emergencies at Medellin one of which, through negligence, resulted in the deaths of many people.
"El avión de VivaColombia en ningún momento se declaró en emergencia" | EL UNIVERSAL - Cartagena
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The most surprising thing about this thread is the lack of understanding of Latin culture. Larger operators, sure, they're mostly legit...but this one-horse show with a pretty private-pilot girl filmed in the left seat prior to departure wearing three stripes; pilot/owner selfies all over social media throwing up gang signs, etc.....this disaster should come as no surprise whatsoever. And I mean it was probably long overdue.
BEA report into RJ85 Low Fuel Incident
An insight into the RJ85's fuel system & management at low quantity:
https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/ei-...w100617.en.pdf
https://www.bea.aero/docspa/2010/ei-...w100617.en.pdf
Last edited by Nightstop; 2nd Dec 2016 at 08:42. Reason: Spelling
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Everyone who compares this tragedy to the Ryanair fuel incident shows a severe lack of knowledge regarding fuel planning.
All Ryanair aircraft carried extra fuel that night (above the minimum legal reserves), Lamia appears to have carried NO reserve whatsoever. Due to extended holding and an emergency from another South American airliner who really was running out of fuel (!), two of the Ryanairs ended up using 2 minutes of their 30 minute reserve. There are lessons to be learned about the Ryanair situation, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this Lamia tragedy where it seems that there were no reserves planned at all.
All Ryanair aircraft carried extra fuel that night (above the minimum legal reserves), Lamia appears to have carried NO reserve whatsoever. Due to extended holding and an emergency from another South American airliner who really was running out of fuel (!), two of the Ryanairs ended up using 2 minutes of their 30 minute reserve. There are lessons to be learned about the Ryanair situation, but it has absolutely nothing to do with this Lamia tragedy where it seems that there were no reserves planned at all.
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Without doubt, the global aviation community is standing on the side of the contoller... I have just set up a Go Fund Me on her behalf, the limk can be found here https://www.gofundme.com/controller-of-the-lamia-crash Please, Help me with the wording, if I can express the sentiment better, I will. Thank you all
"Fuel emergencies, declared when pilots come close to having 30 minutes of fuel left on landing, 'while rare, are not unusual' in the airline industry"
M O'L August 2013.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...safety-culture
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It seems like declaring an emergency could have saved the day. I'm looking into exactly this topic for quite a while now and it seems there is very little knowledge about why pilots seem so reluctant to declare.
Although in this case there are quite a few "obvious" reasons why the owner/pilot did not declare, does anyone know of some proper research / reports why (also GA) pilots do not declare, when they clearly need a maximum of help.
Although in this case there are quite a few "obvious" reasons why the owner/pilot did not declare, does anyone know of some proper research / reports why (also GA) pilots do not declare, when they clearly need a maximum of help.
In the uk we do practice for emergencies in the simulator and the people running them try to engineer situations which require controllers to say "avoiding action" so it isn't a strange thing to have to say.
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Well it is certainly something the accountants are still aware of.
"Pressured" might not be the right word but where I am we get regular reminders about carrying extra fuel and we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...
That said I've never had a decision to carry extra fuel decision queried.
"Pressured" might not be the right word but where I am we get regular reminders about carrying extra fuel and we do get a regular personalised breakdown of how much "excess" fuel we decide to carry on each sector and whether it was actually used...
That said I've never had a decision to carry extra fuel decision queried.
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No, it's not. THIS is what happens when people fly around with significantly less than minimum fuel. Those RYR aircraft had sufficient fuel to divert and land safely. This aircraft rather tragically, did not.
maire paire:
As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:
1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.
I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:
One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
Originally Posted by barry lloyd View Post
FIRESYSOK:
One of the most sensible posts I have seen on this tragedy. Most contributors to this thread would simply not believe what goes on in the name of aviation in these countries.
Non-sense cultural prejudice. The accident statistics show otherwise. And though small numbers can be deceiving, as per the 2015 safety report the region's accident rate for jet operations was 0.39 which was lower than the 5-year mean rates in Africa (3.69), Asia-Pacific (0.56), CIS (3.14) and the Middle East-North Africa (1.00). And, interestingly enough, the region did the best of all other regions on turbo-prop operations with 0 (that´s zero) accidents. I can understand that a small charter operator would want to take advantage of a media-heavy event to promote his airline. In any case, the lack of professionalism on this particular flight was appalling. From there to demonize a whole region appears unjustified and uncalled for.
1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.
I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
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Military background contributing factor?
I understand that the PICwas ex-military. Isn't it possible that pilots with such a background, due to the nature of their flight training which involves risky manoevers and missions may be willing to take higher risks than their civilian counterparts? Are there any statistical figures regarding accidents involving retired military pilots?
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Unfortunately, despite better flight planning tools and resources this still happens occasionally.
I remember in the late 90's I was in Recife awaiting a flight to Lisbon. The airplane, an A310-300 of a national carrier, arrive from Fortaleza partially loaded to pick up the Recife pax. Once boarded we were told we were to expect a delay awaiting fuel. I sat at the back of business on the right side almost over the top of the refuel panel. Never saw anyone. After 45 minutes we started up and took off. Guess what, we were greeted with blue lights at the threshold on landing at Lisbon and had to be towed to the gate. Did we take gas in Recife....probably not.
I remember in the late 90's I was in Recife awaiting a flight to Lisbon. The airplane, an A310-300 of a national carrier, arrive from Fortaleza partially loaded to pick up the Recife pax. Once boarded we were told we were to expect a delay awaiting fuel. I sat at the back of business on the right side almost over the top of the refuel panel. Never saw anyone. After 45 minutes we started up and took off. Guess what, we were greeted with blue lights at the threshold on landing at Lisbon and had to be towed to the gate. Did we take gas in Recife....probably not.
As one who has spent half their professional life working in South America, speaks fluent Spanish and Portuguese and had dealings with the civil aviation authorities in most of those countries, I will say only this:
1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.
I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
1) Not all of the accidents which take place are investigated or reported officially. Example - the 'meat run' from Trinidad (Bolivia) to La Paz when there were many accidents, one of which I saw myself, but it was never formally reported.
2) Why were DC-3s allowed to take off from Villavicencio (Colombia) with their doors removed so that they could carry petrol drums? This happened in plain sight during the day - I saw it with my own eyes - and not just once.
I fully understand that breaches of the rules take place in other parts of the world too, but I speak only of what I know.
I understand that the PICwas ex-military. Isn't it possible that pilots with such a background, due to the nature of their flight training which involves risky manoevers and missions may be willing to take higher risks than their civilian counterparts? Are there any statistical figures regarding accidents involving retired military pilots?
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Used the sim & LaMia 2933 was totally survivable
Maybe if the crew had trained for total electrical failure everyone would have lived. Some of my best training was at 4 am, in the sim at FlightSafety, when we had time to experiment.
Human factors: Based on their ATC calls, it sounds like they did not realize a flameout caused a total electrical failure. This blacked out the flight deck, where the captain overreacted and dove for the runway. Then the cabin went pitch black and people jumped up out of their seats screaming, which the pilots heard. It appears they totally lost situational awareness, thinking the radio beacon was the airport. Look at the crash site picture (Crash: LAMIA Bolivia RJ85 near Medellin on Nov 28th 2016, electrical problems, no fuel, impact with terrain).
Why would they nose dive for a spot 9.5 miles from the runway where there are no lights? The ridge they hit is 300 meters from the station (RNG VOR). My hunch is that they completely disregarded their fuel state, partly due to the distracting nature of the charter. How often was the captain leaving the flight deck to socialize in the back? Whatever he had been wrapped up in, he was not calm or setup for the approach. Instead of pitching for best glide, they dove for the deck. They could have squeezed out 10 minutes from FL210 when the lights went out. That's a ton of time to make life saving decisions.
Sim test: I tried the scenario w/ an ERJ-190 gear down at FL210 heading away from SKRG 15 miles to the south--made the runway, no problem. LaMia could have easily glided that distance and seen the runway. Even if they only made it halfway to the airport, there are flat open fields to ditch. People could have walked off that plane, at least the smart ones belted into their seats.
I'm left wondering if the pilots had clue one that they were in trouble. If I was in the right seat (or the jumpseat) I'd of been worrying about the fuel situation an hour prior. I would have been vocal about it. With 30 mins. left I'd of been pushing hard to land, and at 15 mins. I would have been freaked out and declaring an emergency. The closest I came to this scenario was a nasty winter storm at SFO. I was pressing ATC to let us land after being stuck in a +1 hour hold over Santa Cruz. The FO and I were discussing contingencies the entire time. When we approached 30 mins. of fuel left, I demanded immediate routing to San Jose. This got us clearance to SFO, but it still took 20 mins. to land and 10 mins. to taxi. I was worried that one of the engines might quit on the way to the gate, and how I'd explain myself. Anyway, the LaMia accident was totally survivable, even with fuel mismanagement and a dead stick landing.
Human factors: Based on their ATC calls, it sounds like they did not realize a flameout caused a total electrical failure. This blacked out the flight deck, where the captain overreacted and dove for the runway. Then the cabin went pitch black and people jumped up out of their seats screaming, which the pilots heard. It appears they totally lost situational awareness, thinking the radio beacon was the airport. Look at the crash site picture (Crash: LAMIA Bolivia RJ85 near Medellin on Nov 28th 2016, electrical problems, no fuel, impact with terrain).
Why would they nose dive for a spot 9.5 miles from the runway where there are no lights? The ridge they hit is 300 meters from the station (RNG VOR). My hunch is that they completely disregarded their fuel state, partly due to the distracting nature of the charter. How often was the captain leaving the flight deck to socialize in the back? Whatever he had been wrapped up in, he was not calm or setup for the approach. Instead of pitching for best glide, they dove for the deck. They could have squeezed out 10 minutes from FL210 when the lights went out. That's a ton of time to make life saving decisions.
Sim test: I tried the scenario w/ an ERJ-190 gear down at FL210 heading away from SKRG 15 miles to the south--made the runway, no problem. LaMia could have easily glided that distance and seen the runway. Even if they only made it halfway to the airport, there are flat open fields to ditch. People could have walked off that plane, at least the smart ones belted into their seats.
I'm left wondering if the pilots had clue one that they were in trouble. If I was in the right seat (or the jumpseat) I'd of been worrying about the fuel situation an hour prior. I would have been vocal about it. With 30 mins. left I'd of been pushing hard to land, and at 15 mins. I would have been freaked out and declaring an emergency. The closest I came to this scenario was a nasty winter storm at SFO. I was pressing ATC to let us land after being stuck in a +1 hour hold over Santa Cruz. The FO and I were discussing contingencies the entire time. When we approached 30 mins. of fuel left, I demanded immediate routing to San Jose. This got us clearance to SFO, but it still took 20 mins. to land and 10 mins. to taxi. I was worried that one of the engines might quit on the way to the gate, and how I'd explain myself. Anyway, the LaMia accident was totally survivable, even with fuel mismanagement and a dead stick landing.