Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia
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So does it seem the Pic as owner, flew knowingly right to the limits of fuel reserve (I presume this to be illegal) after cancelling a scheduled fuel stop?
Would he be motivated to do that to save money? For ex) if cost of fuel stop was built into the charter price?
Especially if he'd managed the trip successfully a couple of prior times?
Would he be motivated to do that to save money? For ex) if cost of fuel stop was built into the charter price?
Especially if he'd managed the trip successfully a couple of prior times?
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What is clear and doesn't need the results of any investigation is if somebody applied for approval to operate that route as a scheduled airline using an RJ85 there would only be two potential outcomes ... 1. Turned down flat 2. Approved but with such onerous operational restrictions (or expensive mods to fit extra tanks etc) that it would be commercially unworkable.
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So does it seem the Pic as owner, flew knowingly right to the limits of fuel reserve (I presume this to be illegal) after cancelling a scheduled fuel stop?
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You'd think the flight plan straight to Medellin might not be accepted by the AC flight computer? Perhaps RJ experts would know.
Though if he filed a plan through Bogota I suppose all would be ok?
Though if he filed a plan through Bogota I suppose all would be ok?
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Just a question, not an assertion at anything. I wonder what the flight currency was of the owner, both a/c & sim. I've flown for major EU airlines where the CP was so busy he didn't fly and even lost his LPC. He then renewed it and went to Seattle to collect the 1st of a new variant and ferry it back. In other airlines the office jocks would do a short out/back once a month to keep current and be in the office mid-morning. It would not be the the first time a prestigious charter popped up and someone hi-up pulled rank to operate it. If everything goes fine it's fine; if the a/c starts to play up technically, or if mother nature + ATC throws a spanner in the works, lack of familiarity can be a factor in decision making, or lack of.
Just a question to those who know.
Just a question to those who know.
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Hi
Sorry my poor english, but there is a summarized translation for the copilot of AVA9256, that its on the same frecuency of the plane crashed.
-Look, the thing was...When we are on approach, the tower send us on hold pattern with fl210, because other plane has declared emergency (fuel leak), when we reach a fl, the tower send us for 190, at this time, the RJ 85 its above on us, on holding pattern to.
-Suddenly the crew of RJ tell to the flight controller (a lady): "...Flight **** requesting priority to land, we have fuel issues, requesting priority to localizer..."
- At this time my commander tell me: ".. if he was out of fuel, why no declare an emergency?.." At this moment the RJ pilot dont declare any emergency.
-The flight controller inform to RJ pilot, that was a other plane on emergency land on progress.
- The RJ Pilot tell again to flight controller "Fuel issues" and begin to descend almost immediately, whithout any clearance from the tower.
-We saw the other plane descend at our left at high speed, at this moment the flight controller gave us vectors to make distance for the RJ.
-While RJ descends the pilot declare an Emergency , because of fuel. Begin to scream " Mayday Mayday requesting vectors for localizer" The FC gave vectors and ask the RJ the type of emergency, the crew responds " Now we have full electrical failure, vectors to find the runaway" .
The the FC say: "No contact radar".
The RJ answer "Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)",
At the same time we hear the commander Screaming ".. landing gear down ...", Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)"
We are on silent, a few seconds later the FC tells to RJ : " You are on Radial 180 from the RNW with 9000´ and 8 miles" .
This is the place of VOR i remember ...pushing for then and say to myself GO Go Go...
And they are on VOR Whith 9000´... They are going to crash ...on radio still the RJ : "Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)"...
After this.. Silent...
-* The FC continue to call the RJ whitout answer and we start to cry... and continue flight and land...
- All the time tower continue to call the RJ whitout answer and we heared the crash... on the radio com....
Soory again for my english.
The plane struck a mountain at no more than 200 mts for the VOR ...
Sorry my poor english, but there is a summarized translation for the copilot of AVA9256, that its on the same frecuency of the plane crashed.
-Look, the thing was...When we are on approach, the tower send us on hold pattern with fl210, because other plane has declared emergency (fuel leak), when we reach a fl, the tower send us for 190, at this time, the RJ 85 its above on us, on holding pattern to.
-Suddenly the crew of RJ tell to the flight controller (a lady): "...Flight **** requesting priority to land, we have fuel issues, requesting priority to localizer..."
- At this time my commander tell me: ".. if he was out of fuel, why no declare an emergency?.." At this moment the RJ pilot dont declare any emergency.
-The flight controller inform to RJ pilot, that was a other plane on emergency land on progress.
- The RJ Pilot tell again to flight controller "Fuel issues" and begin to descend almost immediately, whithout any clearance from the tower.
-We saw the other plane descend at our left at high speed, at this moment the flight controller gave us vectors to make distance for the RJ.
-While RJ descends the pilot declare an Emergency , because of fuel. Begin to scream " Mayday Mayday requesting vectors for localizer" The FC gave vectors and ask the RJ the type of emergency, the crew responds " Now we have full electrical failure, vectors to find the runaway" .
The the FC say: "No contact radar".
The RJ answer "Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)",
At the same time we hear the commander Screaming ".. landing gear down ...", Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)"
We are on silent, a few seconds later the FC tells to RJ : " You are on Radial 180 from the RNW with 9000´ and 8 miles" .
This is the place of VOR i remember ...pushing for then and say to myself GO Go Go...
And they are on VOR Whith 9000´... They are going to crash ...on radio still the RJ : "Help us , vectors to runaway please... (desesperate voice of crew)"...
After this.. Silent...
-* The FC continue to call the RJ whitout answer and we start to cry... and continue flight and land...
- All the time tower continue to call the RJ whitout answer and we heared the crash... on the radio com....
Soory again for my english.
The plane struck a mountain at no more than 200 mts for the VOR ...
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If CP-2933 had originally filed for a Bogota fuel+go and then re-filed in flight for Medallin then we would have heard about it by now. He may have used Bogota as as an en-route alternate in order to reduce his contingency fuel on a single flight plan but it is so close to destination as to be of no saving.... In any case that presumes they adhered to some sort of fuel policy... which looks rather unlikely!
From elche's link above LaMia Airlines the Panama Post alleges that there is dirty money and shady political dealings behind this operation.
It seems strange therefore that they are apparently the airline of choice for several South American soccer teams. In my experience Soccer teams don't usually need to buy cheap... so one might assume the airline is either particularly well connected in the VIP market, or they are #1 choice for some other reason. We understand the crew complement was 9, that's 2 pilots and 7 cabin crew on an aircraft that normally operates with only 2 or 3 cabin crew. Why so many? You might say this is a VIP operation but 4 or 5 would be overdoing it for VIPs.... but 7 for a pax load of 85 ???
What sort of party bus is this exactly ?
From elche's link above LaMia Airlines the Panama Post alleges that there is dirty money and shady political dealings behind this operation.
It seems strange therefore that they are apparently the airline of choice for several South American soccer teams. In my experience Soccer teams don't usually need to buy cheap... so one might assume the airline is either particularly well connected in the VIP market, or they are #1 choice for some other reason. We understand the crew complement was 9, that's 2 pilots and 7 cabin crew on an aircraft that normally operates with only 2 or 3 cabin crew. Why so many? You might say this is a VIP operation but 4 or 5 would be overdoing it for VIPs.... but 7 for a pax load of 85 ???
What sort of party bus is this exactly ?
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Smott, re submitted flight plans: During my ATPL theory studies, our instructor (an MD-80 professional pilot) explained a "trick" to deal with marginal fuel/range: For a trip from A to B that passes C along the way, file A to C with B as alternate. When approaching C, if weather at B ok and fuel status good, i.e. contingency not consumed, declare "go to alternate". With this trick, he could use the alternate fuel to "extend" his legal range, of course at the expense of reduced options once at B...
Edit: Magplug beat me to it.
Edit: Magplug beat me to it.
Last edited by NiclasB; 30th Nov 2016 at 13:56. Reason: Edit: Magplug beat me to it.
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I've found the link that was posted by Flyguy2006 in message #145 very interesting. I'm not a native speaker, but after listening to it a couple of times I think I got most of it. Seems like this statement is made by an Avianca pilot supposedly av9771. He describes that they were instructed to enter a holding pattern due to the viva colombia flight carrying out an emergency landing due to a (suspected) fuel leak. They initially entered the holding at 21.000ft and then descended to 19.000ft in the pattern. The Lamia flight entered the holding just above them at 21.000ft. After some time he reports that the Lamia asked for priority due to a "fuel problem". I'm not sure if understood that correctly but it seemed like ATC asked them if they would declare emergency which they initially denied. The controller explained to them that there is currently an emergency landing in progress. They kept on asking for priority due to fuel and then stated that they would proceed for the approach. All of sudden they started a descent forcing the controller to vector the avianca flight away from the holding. He claims that they could see the lights of the flight descending next to them. The controller asked them again and they declared "mayday,mayday,mayday" stating that they experience a total electrical failure now. They panically asked for vectors towards the runway and the controller replied that she doesn't have them on the radar anymore. They continued asking for vectors and she explained that she suspects them at 180° 9000ft about 8 miles according to "D.O.R.". I don't know what that spanish term means but I guess it could be VDF. The avianca pilots states that they became extremly anxious when they learned about the suspected position of the Lamia flight. Then there was a last transmission asking for vector to the runway which ended abruptely. Thereafter, the controller and also the avianca crew tried to call them several times without success...
I don't know about the authenticity of the tape and maybe any native (or at least better) speaker can correct any mistakes I've made in my translation. Nonetheless, I would derive two interesting facts from that tape: First, they did not enter holding on their request but had to due to the VIVA colombia flight. Second, they announced the complete failure of the electrical system after they declared fuel emergency and started an unauthorized approach try.
So, to me it rather seems like they were on their last bit of fuel when entering the holding which came maybe unexpected to them and then ran out of fuel which also obviously leads to the loss of both generators leaving them on sby power. Pure speculation obviously....
I don't know about the authenticity of the tape and maybe any native (or at least better) speaker can correct any mistakes I've made in my translation. Nonetheless, I would derive two interesting facts from that tape: First, they did not enter holding on their request but had to due to the VIVA colombia flight. Second, they announced the complete failure of the electrical system after they declared fuel emergency and started an unauthorized approach try.
So, to me it rather seems like they were on their last bit of fuel when entering the holding which came maybe unexpected to them and then ran out of fuel which also obviously leads to the loss of both generators leaving them on sby power. Pure speculation obviously....
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Had he filed a flight plan with Rionegro as an alternate, could he have asked to deviate to Medellin, just 10nm away, as soon as he was put on hold, to avoid declaring the emergency (and avoid being caught)?
All hypothetical of course.
Last edited by Una Due Tfc; 30th Nov 2016 at 16:14.
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IanWorthington:
If they were told to, due to an emergency aircraft diverting to Madellin - forcing a hold - which appears to be the case.
There's some confusion as to whether or not the other flight had declared an emergency or not, but timeline-wise (in the link to the avherald article I posted above) they were cleared and entered the pattern immediately after the Avianca flight successfully landed, so I'd assume they have to be related. If ATC asked them to hold, it probably doesn't matter if the Avianca flight was "emergency" or not, it appears to have still triggered the hold for the accident LaMia flight.
The en-route alternate / diversion idea is interesting, but this is a classic example of why it wouldn't work. That scenario seems purely based upon some sort of weather delay or diversion, and would never account for unforeseen issues like a temp. hold at final destination - by then you'd be unable to divert, right? (obviously in this case, but I meant in normal ops in more typical situations and locations as well?)
Still, going bingo fuel in a 6 minute (or whatever it was) hold (after a normal, direct flight) is obviously criminal, and some hugely important rules and regs had already been broken by then.
If they were told to, due to an emergency aircraft diverting to Madellin - forcing a hold - which appears to be the case.
There's some confusion as to whether or not the other flight had declared an emergency or not, but timeline-wise (in the link to the avherald article I posted above) they were cleared and entered the pattern immediately after the Avianca flight successfully landed, so I'd assume they have to be related. If ATC asked them to hold, it probably doesn't matter if the Avianca flight was "emergency" or not, it appears to have still triggered the hold for the accident LaMia flight.
The en-route alternate / diversion idea is interesting, but this is a classic example of why it wouldn't work. That scenario seems purely based upon some sort of weather delay or diversion, and would never account for unforeseen issues like a temp. hold at final destination - by then you'd be unable to divert, right? (obviously in this case, but I meant in normal ops in more typical situations and locations as well?)
Still, going bingo fuel in a 6 minute (or whatever it was) hold (after a normal, direct flight) is obviously criminal, and some hugely important rules and regs had already been broken by then.
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Captain WAS airline owner
@ Magplug, you posted ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alas Para Volar
I hazard a prediction that the root cause is PIC is owner of the airline. Commercial / status / prestige imperative. Pushing the range envelope. Not enough fuel. No reserve / contingency. Entirely avoidable accident. RIP.
Magplug: I'd go with that 100%
According to local media, you are spot on.
From Director de la aerolínea LaMia habla sobre accidente de Chapecoense - Justicia - ELTIEMPO.COM (using Google Chrome's translate) in an interview with a company director of LAMIA ...
"The pilot, Miguel Alejandro Quiroga Murakami, was the owner of the company."
Regarding re-fuelling he seems a bit vague or confused.
"How are the protocols that you have on fuel? Is it possible to arrive with little fuel to somewhere where they will land or always have to have a sufficient reserve?
As you say, it must have sufficient reserve fuel to reach an alternative.
Had they already done this flight to Medellin?
Yes, but we did it twice from Medellin to Bolivia. It was a flight that was always perfect."
"Why the passengers had to change planes?
As Brazil did not authorize us, so we had to get them to Santa Cruz. We had one plane and that plane has been that has been flying around.
But at no time this flight had planned resupply reach to Bogota?
Santa Cruz had to go to Cobija, which is in Bolivia. Cobija had to go to Medellin. But they went straight to Bogota, and then had to see the possibility of continuing or landing in Bogota. It was night. And that denial of Brazil was complicated a bit. But apparently, if the pilot has continued it's just because he could. It has continued and has passed this catastrophe that makes us much harm.
When the plane arrived in Medellin no longer had enough fuel to land?
We're seeing that, waiting for research information. But if he felt he had no fuel, he had to go to Bogota to restock. Bogota airport, according to the flight plan, was the alternate for anything. Before going Bogota had to make the decision; if it was with good fuel I had to follow, but if something was wrong with the fuel, should enter."
Apologies for the limitations of Google Translate but from that, I infer that the Captain decided he could make his destination without re-fuelling for reserve fuel, presumably in the belief that there would no need for any, a gross violation of flight planning.
That page also has some other good relevant links. Well worth looking at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alas Para Volar
I hazard a prediction that the root cause is PIC is owner of the airline. Commercial / status / prestige imperative. Pushing the range envelope. Not enough fuel. No reserve / contingency. Entirely avoidable accident. RIP.
Magplug: I'd go with that 100%
According to local media, you are spot on.
From Director de la aerolínea LaMia habla sobre accidente de Chapecoense - Justicia - ELTIEMPO.COM (using Google Chrome's translate) in an interview with a company director of LAMIA ...
"The pilot, Miguel Alejandro Quiroga Murakami, was the owner of the company."
Regarding re-fuelling he seems a bit vague or confused.
"How are the protocols that you have on fuel? Is it possible to arrive with little fuel to somewhere where they will land or always have to have a sufficient reserve?
As you say, it must have sufficient reserve fuel to reach an alternative.
Had they already done this flight to Medellin?
Yes, but we did it twice from Medellin to Bolivia. It was a flight that was always perfect."
"Why the passengers had to change planes?
As Brazil did not authorize us, so we had to get them to Santa Cruz. We had one plane and that plane has been that has been flying around.
But at no time this flight had planned resupply reach to Bogota?
Santa Cruz had to go to Cobija, which is in Bolivia. Cobija had to go to Medellin. But they went straight to Bogota, and then had to see the possibility of continuing or landing in Bogota. It was night. And that denial of Brazil was complicated a bit. But apparently, if the pilot has continued it's just because he could. It has continued and has passed this catastrophe that makes us much harm.
When the plane arrived in Medellin no longer had enough fuel to land?
We're seeing that, waiting for research information. But if he felt he had no fuel, he had to go to Bogota to restock. Bogota airport, according to the flight plan, was the alternate for anything. Before going Bogota had to make the decision; if it was with good fuel I had to follow, but if something was wrong with the fuel, should enter."
Apologies for the limitations of Google Translate but from that, I infer that the Captain decided he could make his destination without re-fuelling for reserve fuel, presumably in the belief that there would no need for any, a gross violation of flight planning.
That page also has some other good relevant links. Well worth looking at.
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Smott, re submitted flight plans: During my ATPL theory studies, our instructor (an MD-80 professional pilot) explained a "trick" to deal with marginal fuel/range: For a trip from A to B that passes C along the way, file A to C with B as alternate. When approaching C, if weather at B ok and fuel status good, i.e. contingency not consumed, declare "go to alternate". With this trick, he could use the alternate fuel to "extend" his legal range, of course at the expense of reduced options once at B...
Edit: Magplug beat me to it.
Edit: Magplug beat me to it.
Yup, been shown this 'clever trick' by some morons early in my career, when flying for a somewhat shady charter operator. However, it's not clever and, in fact, not legal. If you re-dispatch in the air (which the above in-fact is), you are still supposed to have alternate, final reserve AND contingency fuel for the remainder of the flight.
Properly done, re-dispatch can save a couple of kg's and possibly prevent a fuel stop on the way, but it is not a license to operate without adequate reserves...
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Thanks 35hPA28. I missed that.
Apparently, the Argentine football team was not impressed with the aircraft when they travelled on it recently.
La selección de Messi se había quejado del avión de la desgracia - 30.11.2016 - LA NACION
Apparently, the Argentine football team was not impressed with the aircraft when they travelled on it recently.
La selección de Messi se había quejado del avión de la desgracia - 30.11.2016 - LA NACION
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According to Lamia's director (from the interview posted by Design Engineer above) the plan had Bogota as an alternate, and Rionegro as a destination, so that would rule out the trick
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Here is a link to the report from the Avianca pilot regarding the supposed ATC conversations. It is in Spanish so I'm unable to translate it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomwSg4UCsc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomwSg4UCsc
We were told to go to rwy 01 hold at 21.000ft, and then ordered to 19.000ft.
When we were at 19.000ft the RJ85 was above us and was asking ATC (female ATCO) “We ask for priority and to proceed directly to the runway, we ask for priority and to proceed to the localizer, we have a fuel problem”
It occurred to me that the Captain said he had a fuel problem and can’t declare an emergency in that moment.
“We have a problem, the plane is making an emergency landing, we’ll proceed, we’ll proceed, we have a fuel problem” and they started to descend.
The controller then asked (us) “AVIANCA 9256 turn left heading …” whatever to at least make us avoid that sh*t. We even saw their lights passing us while they were descending.
The controller then asked “Are you declaring an emergency” and the pilot replied “yes, we are declaring an emergency, we have fuel problems” and then made the mayday call.
The controller direct them to the localizer for rwy 01 and asked “please inform what is your problem” and they replied “now we have total electrical failure! (we need) vectors to the runway”
The controller said she couldn’t do that because she didn’t have them on radar.
They asked again “help us, vectors to the runway” and kept asking continuously. We could understand someone shouting in the background – “gear down”
Then the controller said “you’re at the 180 radial of rwy 01 at 9000ft, about 8 miles”
But they kept on asking “help us Miss, vectors to the runway” until they were heard no more.
This went on for about two minutes.
(...)
When we were at 19.000ft the RJ85 was above us and was asking ATC (female ATCO) “We ask for priority and to proceed directly to the runway, we ask for priority and to proceed to the localizer, we have a fuel problem”
It occurred to me that the Captain said he had a fuel problem and can’t declare an emergency in that moment.
“We have a problem, the plane is making an emergency landing, we’ll proceed, we’ll proceed, we have a fuel problem” and they started to descend.
The controller then asked (us) “AVIANCA 9256 turn left heading …” whatever to at least make us avoid that sh*t. We even saw their lights passing us while they were descending.
The controller then asked “Are you declaring an emergency” and the pilot replied “yes, we are declaring an emergency, we have fuel problems” and then made the mayday call.
The controller direct them to the localizer for rwy 01 and asked “please inform what is your problem” and they replied “now we have total electrical failure! (we need) vectors to the runway”
The controller said she couldn’t do that because she didn’t have them on radar.
They asked again “help us, vectors to the runway” and kept asking continuously. We could understand someone shouting in the background – “gear down”
Then the controller said “you’re at the 180 radial of rwy 01 at 9000ft, about 8 miles”
But they kept on asking “help us Miss, vectors to the runway” until they were heard no more.
This went on for about two minutes.
(...)
