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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:14
  #161 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flyguy2006 View Post
Here is a link to the report from the Avianca pilot regarding the supposed ATC conversations. It is in Spanish so I'm unable to translate it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xomwSg4UCsc
Translation (until a better one comes up):

We were told to go to rwy 01 hold at 21.000ft, and then ordered to 19.000ft.
When we were at 19.000ft the RJ85 was above us and was asking ATC (female ATCO) “We ask for priority and to proceed directly to the runway, we ask for priority and to proceed to the localizer, we have a fuel problem”
It occurred to me that the Captain said he had a fuel problem and can’t declare an emergency in that moment.
“We have a problem, the plane is making an emergency landing, we’ll proceed, we’ll proceed, we have a fuel problem” and they started to descend.
The controller then asked (us) “AVIANCA 9256 turn left heading …” whatever to at least make us avoid that sh*t. We even saw their lights passing us while they were descending.
The controller then asked “Are you declaring an emergency” and the pilot replied “yes, we are declaring an emergency, we have fuel problems” and then made the mayday call.
The controller direct them to the localizer for rwy 01 and asked “please inform what is your problem” and they replied “now we have total electrical failure! (we need) vectors to the runway”
The controller said she couldn’t do that because she didn’t have them on radar.
They asked again “help us, vectors to the runway” and kept asking continuously. We could understand someone shouting in the background – “gear down”
Then the controller said “you’re at the 180 radial of rwy 01 at 9000ft, about 8 miles”
But they kept on asking “help us Miss, vectors to the runway” until they were heard no more.
This went on for about two minutes.
(...)
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:18
  #162 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GearDown&Locked View Post
Translation (until a better one comes up):
Adriaan at Colombia Reports, Colombia News | Colombia Reports, is working on it now.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:20
  #163 (permalink)  
 
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The female crew who survived has been quoted as saying that the lights inside the aircraft began to turn off gradually in the 50 seconds before impact.

The male crew who survived has said he remained in the fetal position after gathering bags to place in between his legs.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:28
  #164 (permalink)  
 
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What's the nav kit on this a/c? What works from the battery? No fuel = no Gens or APU. 19000' and not on radar? Hm?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:30
  #165 (permalink)  
 
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Video from helicopter showing a bit more detail of location of debris.
Filmagem de helicóptero mostra que avião da Chape colidiu durante queda
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:41
  #166 (permalink)  
 
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The more I read about this incident....the less it becomes a case of "Holes in the cheese" - more a case of one big hole of failiures.

1. The Range / Fuel issue. Seems a case of "Got away with it twice, but not thrice" - Ultimately, previous attempts did not involve holding.

2. Why the delay in announcing a fuel starvation issue? Why not announce an emergency immediately - Those crucial minutes could of changed everything?

3. Why the urge to "Get down" and have the gear down, causing drag? Obviously we don't have an accurate timeline...but the "gear down" seems to be early. I would of thought in a fuel starved situation this would be the least of your concerns - in fact, unless approaching an airfield, would gear up not have been preferred for a terrain landing? Also - at the height they were - surely Altitude buys you time to calculate and plan. Once it's gone, you aren't getting it back.

Also - someone familiar on type. Surely this issue presented itself over a period of time - so alarm bells should have been ringing. I cannot imagine all 4 engines having a simultanious flame out? So is there actually a possibility that the crew, knowing they were marginal, ignored the fact one (Some) of the engines were shutdown?

It reads like the worst chain of events in aviation I have seen in a long time. Not only that, it seems that fate gave them multiple bites at the cherry to "Save" the situation and at each and every step, the obvious was not done.

Last edited by RiSq; 30th Nov 2016 at 16:45. Reason: Mobile phone typo fails.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:43
  #167 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAT 5 View Post
What's the nav kit on this a/c? What works from the battery? No fuel = no Gens or APU. 19000' and not on radar? Hm?
Avianca 9256 was holding initially at 21.000 ft then descended to 19.000ft, and the RJ85 was already above them.

From what I understood from the Avianca pilot, ATC lost radar contact after they had left their holding position.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:47
  #168 (permalink)  
 
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@RiSq
Re your item 2
read post #158 for the most probable explanation of why he did not want to declare an emergency and thereby attract unwanted official interest in the goings on.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:54
  #169 (permalink)  
 
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@Dsc810 - I cannot fathom that, I really cannot - but it basically confirms my other belief - there were mutliple points to turn this situation around. It's absolutely disgusting that, even with the facts in front of him - no fuel, Emergency....he neglected to inform ATC, which ultimately, would of prioritised them. I'd face the consequences of my abysmal actions rather than risk the lives of my PAX - actually, I wouldn't have to as I would not put anyones life at risk to begin with, if I were a Professional Pilot.

I'm not sure if it was Arrogance or stupidity (We will hopefully find out) - but ultimately, it killed (nearly) all of them.

I would normally refrain from such comments, but this looks like it literally is as simple as it first appears. God almighty, I hope I am wrong as ultimately, it makes it more redeemable.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 16:56
  #170 (permalink)  
 
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Question :
When the ATCO called them at 9.000 ft 8 miles out, would this Alt be AGL or MSL?
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:10
  #171 (permalink)  
 
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RiSq:
It reads like the worst chain of events in aviation I have seen in a long time. Not only that, it seems that fate gave them multiple bites at the cherry to "Save" the situation and at each and every step, the obvious was not done.
Sadly some people rather die than admit to a mistake.

Last edited by 20milesout; 30th Nov 2016 at 17:26. Reason: MSL
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:29
  #172 (permalink)  
 
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Ian w/liveryman: the pic didnt choose to hold, he was instructed to by atc. the fact that he followed the instruction suggests to me that he was unaware of any problem other than electrical, at that time.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:33
  #173 (permalink)  
 
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I hope should this be a fuel issue that it brings "food for thought" to those Airlines that quite legally use the other runway at an airfield as the diversion. (not in this case) A lot of the lessons learnt in the past have now been forgotten. "oh that won't happen" often quoted, but as the legal limits become tighter, the illegal ones become very tight.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:37
  #174 (permalink)  
 
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Audio (in spanish)
"Falha total": áudio mostra piloto do avião da Chape insistindo para pousar
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:40
  #175 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting stories about LAMIA

Not immediately relevant to this accident per se but I came across this article during my online wanderings ...... https://panampost.com/sabrina-martin...amia-airlines/
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:41
  #176 (permalink)  
 
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No wonder LMI 2933 didn't land at Cobija for fuel: the airport has no lighting.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:44
  #177 (permalink)  
 
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Normal procedures for landing significantly below minimum fuel in this part of the world is that the aircraft would be impounded pending an investigation, the flight deck crew would be grounded for the duration, if not actually imprisoned, and the company operating certificate would be temporarily suspended. The most likely outcome after a few months would be a massive fine.

Why might that be relevant? Lamia operated a single aircraft, the captain was also the owner of the company, and the company was short of funds and looking for investors. Not a good situation at all.

There have been a number of folks asking why a number of clubs and national teams used this operator. Quite simply they were "recommended" by Conmebol, the South American federation.

Last edited by Pilot DAR; 30th Nov 2016 at 18:35. Reason: no speculation about motivation
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:45
  #178 (permalink)  
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When the ATCO called them at 9.000 ft 8 miles out, would this Alt be AGL or MSL?
MSL of course. I guess ( only guess at this stage) and she lost him because of terrain filters on the radar.
Medelin MDE elevation is 7000 ft, so 9000ft 8 miles out , with no power even on flat ground, no chances anyway. ( there are 10.000ft peaks in the area. )

Edit : Just listened to the R/T posted,
the last transmission was :" 9 mil pés, senhorita. Vectores,, vectores." ( 9000ft Miss, Vectors, vectors ..) so the pilot gave the Alt , not the controller it was apparently not visible on the Secondary radar.

Last edited by ATC Watcher; 1st Dec 2016 at 07:53. Reason: real R/T
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:51
  #179 (permalink)  
 
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Ian w/liveryman: the pic didnt choose to hold, he was instructed to by atc. the fact that he followed the instruction suggests to me that he was unaware of any problem other than electrical, at that time.
He hadn't reported any problem up to that point, the electrical failure came after he started an unauthorized descent, and after he told ATC about his fuel situation, according to the more reliable news sources here.
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Old 30th Nov 2016, 17:53
  #180 (permalink)  
 
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If the weather forecast is well above limits and two completely separate suitable runways are available what's wrong with planning that as your diversion runway, and adding a bit of holding fuel on top?
The problem is that the intended airport may close for reasons other than weather. Security situations, accidents, fires, ATC or NAV/COM issues, natural disasters, etc.

So it's a good idea to always have enough fuel to reach an alternate airport, plus reserves, even if not required by regulations.
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