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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 7th Dec 2016, 09:24
  #761 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AerocatS2A View Post
They had a VOR, ILS and DME, what more do they need?
Most probably -> Fuel and more altitude
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 09:47
  #762 (permalink)  
 
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They had a VOR, ILS and DME, what more do they need?
Just your experience and expert guidance AerocatS2A!
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 09:55
  #763 (permalink)  
 
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Damages claims based on negligence will be enormous. LaMia's insurers (if there are any) will be liable for around USD 10 million just to pay the minimum required to the pax under the Warsaw/Montreal Conventions.
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 09:56
  #764 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by marie paire
Please stop throwing red herrings into the equation!. From all that is known so far, the accident occurred because:
1. Main factor:
The flight was planned with insufficient fuel for the flight in violation of ICAO and national regulations;
2. Contributing factors:
a. the PIC failed to declare fuel emergency when it became apparent that the fuel was below the established minimuns. Mayday was never heard;
b. After the flame-out, the crew did not possess the skill to glide the plane to the airport.
The investigation may unearth additional causes. But, discounting an attempt at a cover-up, it would be extremely surprising if it came out with something substantively different from the above.
marie, your main and contributing factors will probably be mentioned in the final accident report. However, the contributing factors are totally irrelevant. The main factor is the only thing that's worth investigating and I hope it will be a thorough one! As soon as I heard that they were trying to fly a 4:22 hrs long flight in an Avro RJ85, fuel starvation immediately came into my mind.
It turns out that they had performed several earlier 4 hrs+ flights before with this RJ85.
Sorry, but I can not imagine any pilot in any serious company in Western Europe would be foolish enough to attempt a flight where he knows he will be arriving with just a few minutes fuel left.
IF(!) the investigation is done seriously, I'm sure the report will be mentioning criminal negligence, not only from the captain, but from many other people from the company. Lack of oversight from the Bolivian authorities and likely corruption are probably larger contributing factors then the one you mentioned. I know that saying this is not politically correct but anyone with a little bit of common sense will probably agree. May I suggest you let go of your political correctness and give some credit to people displaying some common sense.
The only one I feel sorry for, apart from the innocent victims of course, is Celia Castedo. If she really tried to get answers from the crew about their filed FPLN, only to be sent away, she did more then should be expected from an ARO clerk.
Let's hope that the true criminal responsables for this event fail in trying to make her the scapegoat!
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 10:13
  #765 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sabenaboy View Post
However, the contributing factors are totally irrelevant.
I very much doubt that any AIB would conclude that.
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 10:16
  #766 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deefer dog View Post
@marie paire,



Are you a new mod on the thread?



PashaF was writing about contributory factors, and quite reasonably IMO. The extra load would have required more fuel.
The a/c was full of fuel so the possible extra weight would only mean a few minutes of lost range and they might have made it. But, if this pilot/airline were doing this flight on a regular basis this was always going to happen one day.
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 10:25
  #767 (permalink)  
 
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The captain was playing russian roulette, he also flew 4 other times with limited fuel onboard. One othe them flying the Argentinian soccer team from Buenos Aires to Belo Horizonte, Brazil (high traffic Class C airspace) with Messi aboard. The total flight time was 4 hours 18 min

Last edited by Soave_Pilot; 8th Dec 2016 at 14:31. Reason: 4 hours 18 min
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 10:47
  #768 (permalink)  
 
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They had a VOR, ILS and DME, what more do they need?
On the battery only? I doubt it. This picture seems to show what a battery only cockpit looks like:
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 10:52
  #769 (permalink)  
 
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Lol, I get more indicators on my EC120B with battery power than this. I doubt that this is in ready state. I think master avionics switch 1 and 2 is off. ;-)

CDU would be on, with battery power, I am pretty sure.

let me double check this with a friend of mine that flies Avro 100

Last edited by MartinM; 7th Dec 2016 at 11:17.
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 11:06
  #770 (permalink)  
 
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My last type had almost nothing on the battery - it's primary function was to start the APU!
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 11:10
  #771 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Soave_Pilot View Post
The captain was playing russian roulette, he also flew 4 other times with limited fuel onboard. One othe them flying the Argentinian soccer team from Buenos Aires to Belo Horizonte, Brazil (high traffic Class C airspace) with Messi aboard. The total flight time was 3 hours 18 min
This would require 7th freedom rights. Is this likely, considering 6th freedom was not granted?
(I know nothing about the Chicago Convention )
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 11:31
  #772 (permalink)  
 
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It strikes me as the revelations keep coming, that far from being a tragic case of utter incompetence on behalf of the captain/crew/company, this is growing to include-
  • Dispatchers and other ground staff- if one is already seeking asylum, misguided or not, so she must have some serious fears about her own safety. The response by her own government does little to reassure, which then warrants an in-depth look at how they apportion blame and responsibility.
  • Handlers- there was mention earlier about the company arriving with dry tanks previously, yet this didn't end there.
  • Company owners- the surviving members, because surely this could only happen in a company whose culture is deficient at best, and utterly corrupt at worst.
  • Local CAA- nepotism has already been exposed in the aftermath, but where was the oversight? How long had been operating in this way? Surely, if adequate records were kept then the signs were there previously, and if the records are a mess, that in itself warrants serious attention.
  • Football team owners/management (I know next to nothing about football)- granted, concepts such as duty of care may have little meaning there, but the team has been nearly wiped out. All of the time/investment being lost. Who looked into the operating standards to ensure that the investment and assets were safeguarded?
  • Football association- As above.
  • The other teams who by now might well be thinking that the fun trips before were in fact a close call with disaster only minutes away. Where was the 'due diligence' on their behalf?
  • Even Diplomatic relations across borders are going to be tested
With suggestions that threats had already been made towards the ATCO, this is going to be a mess, and the final outcome I suspect is going to be quite unpalatable to most.

Last edited by Lancelot de boyles; 7th Dec 2016 at 13:17.
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 11:37
  #773 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 212man View Post
On the battery only? I doubt it. This picture seems to show what a battery only cockpit looks like:
Do you make a habit of using Airplane-Pictures.net for your systems information?

Unless there was something wrong with the aircraft other than a lack of fuel, they had the #1 VHF Nav and the #1 DBI. They also had standby airspeed and altitude. They had everything they needed in order to know where they were, where the aerodrome was, and where the ILS was.

deefer dog, I'm not saying I could've landed on the runway, just dispelling the notion that they had no nav.
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 11:39
  #774 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Palm Tree View Post
It seems odd that the pilot didn't ask for a straight in approach from altitude before he entered the hold? Did I miss something?
Yes - reading the first 30 pages of this thread, where the reasons are given and discussed quite a few times
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 12:03
  #775 (permalink)  
 
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Do you make a habit of using Airplane-Pictures.net for your systems information?

Unless there was something wrong with the aircraft other than a lack of fuel, they had the #1 VHF Nav and the #1 DBI. They also had standby airspeed and altitude. They had everything they needed in order to know where they were, where the aerodrome was, and where the ILS was.
No, but your comment is the first definitive statement about what services the crew would still have that I've seen here. Given that the aircraft uses engines 1 & 4 for primary generators, and a (engine driven) hydraulic system for the standby generator, and has an APU, I didn't expect to see much on the battery. There's not much in the public domain to confirm what's left.....
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 12:22
  #776 (permalink)  
 
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The question needs to be asked why the football club didn't charter a longer range aircraft to fly them directly from Chapeco airport (which has a 2475m runway) to Medellin rather than flying commercial via Sao Paulo to Santa Cruz and then booking what should have been a two leg charter. That would be 4 sectors in total which probably isn't ideal preparation for a cup final. It wasn't that the charter was cheap. From what's been published it would appear that the price of the charter was way in excess of what would be reasonable presumably due to various backhanders from the airline to officials in the football world.
It would appear that either the club were in on the scam or the Brazilian FA or CONMEBOL instructed them to use LaMia however inconvenient it was.
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 12:38
  #777 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 212man View Post
Given that the aircraft uses engines 1 & 4 for primary generators, and a (engine driven) hydraulic system for the standby generator, and has an APU, I didn't expect to see much on the battery.
Battery capacity and longevity are greatly affected by how much TLC or abuse they receive in service.

Given what we now know about the operational practices of the airline in question ...
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 12:46
  #778 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by sabenaboy View Post
marie, your main and contributing factors will probably be mentioned in the final accident report. However, the contributing factors are totally irrelevant. The main factor is the only thing that's worth investigating and I hope it will be a thorough one!
Incorrect. Regardless of your bloodlust, the primary aim for any investigation is to learn from mistakes and prevent reoccurrence. The main factor is often the easy bit and it's the contributory factors where the real learning takes place.

Where negligence has taken place, someone will need to be held accountable, but that doesn't mean we should ignore the other contributing factors
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 12:48
  #779 (permalink)  
 
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The real question here is that the pilot had altitude, speed, wind, pressure, distance to r/w and no power, and lacked the necessary skills to fly the aircraft until a safe landing. Coulda and shoulda made it. Sorry if this sounds harsh.
Could write a book about that but, very briefly, there's a hughe difference between:

Relaxed and undisturbed, sorting out well ordered, hindsight immagination

and

real-time anxiety, when the brain is (pre-)occupied, sorting out lots of additional totally (ir)relevant matters. (even including matters from the (very recent) past).

All at the very same instant, whilst the clock is ticking much faster than in the 'armchair' . . .

In addition: You're also not alone, up there . . .
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Old 7th Dec 2016, 13:02
  #780 (permalink)  
 
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Among the survivors is the technician Erwin Tumiri.
Meanwhile "flight technician" Erwin Tumiri still can't accept the crash was due to lack of fuel and believes it to be faulty APU.

And there I was hoping that Erwin might be sitting in the flight deck and be privy to the fuel discussions and shed some valuable light on the chain of events. APU's tend to be faulty if they have no fuel to start up with. Does he think the APU could have replaced the engines?

It turns out that they had performed several earlier 4 hrs+ flights before with this RJ85.

There should therefore be a paper trail of the FPL's for those flights and perhaps the dispatchers alive to comment. There should also be a paper trail of the tech logs and fuel receipts after uplift to analyse those flight profiles. i.e. a history can emerge of what 'the norm' was. Then questions can be asked as to how 'the norm' was allowed to continue.
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