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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 4th Dec 2016, 18:58
  #641 (permalink)  
 
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Do I read that headline right? The crew bodies have been returned to Bolivia as "heroes" , unbelievable
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 19:06
  #642 (permalink)  
 
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In another article on that site it shows that the Bolivian President flew in that same aircraft on 15th November.
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 19:47
  #643 (permalink)  
 
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@Surplus1

The header of Celia's alleged memos is missing so, we don't know to whom it was addressed.
a. not missing,
b. we know the addressees

i read, GG SLVRYGYF SLVRYGYE SLVRYGYF (herself being ZSLRZPZX ) message sent 29 Nov 1650 utc

for more on AFTN codes check [URL = http://dcaa.trafikstyrelsen.dk:8000/...20no%20149.PDF [/URL]
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 19:52
  #644 (permalink)  

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. Do I read that headline right? The crew bodies have been returned to Bolivia as "heroes" , unbelievable
Heros indeed
Those guys were cowards, they did not do the right thing when they realized fuel would be low/non-existent: Decleare an emergency, land at the nearest suitable airport and take the consequences of poor flight and fuel planning from the beginning, and long before they got close to Rio Negro.
They literally murdered passengers and crew members.
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 19:54
  #645 (permalink)  
 
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This may be naive , but would it make sense from a policy perspective to reward airlines who regularly land above fuel mins, such as w tax breaks and so on. Yes, I realize multiple govts may be involved....but say x% tax break for y% landings above mins.
Carrot not stick IOW. Reward safety.
We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:17
  #646 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Joejosh999 View Post
This may be naive , but would it make sense from a policy perspective to reward airlines who regularly land above fuel mins, such as w tax breaks and so on. Yes, I realize multiple govts may be involved....but say x% tax break for y% landings above mins.
Carrot not stick IOW. Reward safety.
We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
That would be like asking cops to regularly stop people driving on the street to give reward tickets for those sticking to the rules.

Rules are made to instil discipline and more or less protect the dumb from themselves.
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:32
  #647 (permalink)  
 
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PR6driver.... From belo Horizonte... for commercial aviation taking in to account runway length,fire services etc, two airports in rio de janeiro... santos dumont and Galeao (the longest runway) though both have some high ground between them and BH. There are also Vitoria and Pampulha.... all of which you could get to and be on the ground within 40 minutes from the hold at BH
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:40
  #648 (permalink)  

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Yeah, a bit naive.
To reward airlines for following the rules could backfire: No reward, no fuel..

In the past some airlines kept track of fuel burn for each Captain and gave bonuses to those who burned less fuel. One way of burning less is to load less fuel.
Several airplanes had to divert to other airports than the destination for low fuel and costing the airlines more than they saved.
I am not aware of any airlines these days having similar programs.

I was singled out once for burning more fuel than the other Captains over a 3 month period and asked about it. Told them I deviated around weather, started early descents and had plenty fuel for contingencies. Cost of doing business Gentlemen..

Flown into Medellin and Santa Cruz many times with plenty of holding, not the places to fly on fumes.
No idea what these guys were thinking(
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:49
  #649 (permalink)  
 
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"I thought S.Americans could be more assertive. We've seen this cockpit gradient problem in the Far East & SE Asia, but S.America?"

You obviously haven't paid any attention to, for example, Geert Hofstede's work on Power Distance. South American countries have some of the highest ratings on this scale, just as high as many Asian countries. A high Power Distance rating basically means it's extremely difficult for subordinates to challenge the person in charge in any given situation.

https://geert-hofstede.com/national-culture.html
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:50
  #650 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by surplus1 View Post

That is not an accident. It is much more like a mass-murder/suicide. Very harsh words I know, but the evidence will substantiate it. I'm so angry I could scream!
Thanks for your post, reading this thread from the beginning, I can only express the same anger. Especially when hearing every time in Brazilian TV news that it had been a "very experienced" pilot, who received a heroe's funeral in his home town in the state of Acre in Brazil.
I am retired too after some 40 years of flying, but still do know the difference between accident and criminal imprudence.
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:54
  #651 (permalink)  

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Huh, the Captain was Brazilian rather than Bolivian?
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:54
  #652 (permalink)  
 
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Better still;
would it make sense from a policy perspective to reward airlines who regularly...
...pass a successful audit of their operation, by allowing them to continue on for another 3/6/9/12months.
(assuming that the local authority were sufficiently professional, and not simply rubber-stamping)

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Old 4th Dec 2016, 20:57
  #653 (permalink)  
 
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Bolivian president Evo Morales said in a news conference that he didn't know that LaMia had authorization nor that it was a Bolivian registered carrier, then a video shows him boarding the same plane 15 days earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0yjUk3rM68

One thing to consider too is how up to date the owner operator was.
He had his crew flying the light weights, but when the chance of showing off his company was presented he sure did jumped into the left seat.
Landing in Bogotá was not an option for him, he knew that it will represent a delay of more than 3 hours at best.
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 21:24
  #654 (permalink)  
 
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I am Currently in Acre in Brazil.... just read a very interesting article from an interview with the captains family... posting from my phone, so will sumarize... later I will dig out the article post a link and translate the relevant parts. The gist is the family are saying that it is ""cruel" and "hirtful" to blame the captain as he was a good father and "honorable" man...... no here is the chilling/intering to analyse part.....when the captain of the LaMia flight his father (also a pilot) had a severe accident resulting in amnesia, disfiguration, broken bones, height loss due to a compressed spine and one leg becoming longer than the other.... as a child the LaMia captain always wanted to be a pilot and his father often asked "but why? Don't you have fear? Haven't you seen what happened to me?" To which he always replied "father, I have no fear, this will never happen to me". I was deeply troubled when I read that.

The journal is called "Pagina 20" as I said, I'll find a link when I get to the hotel
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 22:35
  #655 (permalink)  
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We see with this tragedy how punishment may affect decision-making....
Naive perhaps I know .....
The problem is, you're damned if you do, and only possibly damned if you don't . . . use the M word, that is.


Police handing out plus marks? They tried that for a while in the UK. I'm not sure you got any free points out of it.
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 23:11
  #656 (permalink)  
 
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I know of at least one very senior British training captain who routinely browbeat inexperienced FO's into operating with fuel well below plog.

I do to wish to deviate from this topic, but... if this muppet 'routinely' operated thus, then more than you knew about it. Therefore one has to assume whispers float upwards and were perhaps ignored. How can anyone, legally, operate well below plog? Certainly not on departure; so one has to suspect it was continuing en-route. 2 RWYs at LHR & LGW round the corner?
And so back to Lamia. If this behaviour was a regular occurrence someone other than FLT crew must have known and one assumes whispers float about and reach relevant ears. Were those deaf for a reason?
I'm still waiting to hear the details of the F/O. Rank & experience. The CVR could be mind blowing, either way. Much screaming/pleading from RHS or silence.
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Old 4th Dec 2016, 23:39
  #657 (permalink)  

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. either way. Much screaming/pleading from RHS or silence.
If the Captain is crazy and trying to kill everybody on the airplane, only the crash axe will save the day.
In this case the last resort was not utilized, too bad...
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Old 5th Dec 2016, 00:42
  #658 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AndyJS View Post
"I thought S.Americans could be more assertive. We've seen this cockpit gradient problem in the Far East & SE Asia, but S.America?"

You obviously haven't paid any attention to, for example, Geert Hofstede's work on Power Distance. South American countries have some of the highest ratings on this scale, just as high as many Asian countries. A high Power Distance rating basically means it's extremely difficult for subordinates to challenge the person in charge in any given situation.

https://geert-hofstede.com/national-culture.html
Moot point. El Capitano was also "management". Also, Africa is a pretty good example of power distance.
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Old 5th Dec 2016, 02:38
  #659 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by pax2908 View Post
Should it not be made mandatory to call law enforcement when presented with such a flight plan? Same as when it is suspected that someone is under the influence [...]
pax2908, I don't think it ever occurred to anyone that they'd need a rule about how to handle a flight plan like this one (endurance == enroute)!

Someone going a little light on reserve, the "not quite enough holding contingency" for Heathrow kind of thing, sure, people have thought about that, hence the (local LHR) rules about no priority without declaring emergency, etc. But how could ATC or whoever accepts the flight plan check for slightly low fuel/reserves/contingency? They can't confirm the actual fuel upload and payload nor access fuel burn data for each type / engine combination / variation.

This case is something way beyond that of course. No one would ever expect someone to ever plan only just enough fuel. I expect even Celia thought they'd just miscalculated and didn't want to bother redoing the task, not that they truly were doing what they turned out to be doing.

Last edited by YRP; 5th Dec 2016 at 02:59. Reason: Spelling, clarity, grammar
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Old 5th Dec 2016, 02:57
  #660 (permalink)  
 
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My suspicion is that they had figured out some cute trick to eke out a little bit more range: shutting down a couple engines, using Andean wave – Lord only knows

Worked just fine until being put into a hold

As for the people receiving flight plans, they do not have performance and fuel consumption charts for every aircraft on Earth to verify the crew won't run dry before destination.
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