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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

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Jet goes down on its way to Medellin, Colombia

Old 2nd Dec 2016, 02:23
  #401 (permalink)  
 
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fcom-3 all engines inop

The FCOM Volume 3 gives advice on what to do if all engine start attempts are unsuccessful. The
following advice is extracted from the 146-FCOM Volume 3.
If the engines start attempts are unsuccessful, fly at VFTO + 30 to maximize range.
Glide performance at VFTO + 30 with zero flap and gear up is approximately 2.5 nm/1,000 feet; a 360 o
turn using 25 to 30 o of bank will result in a 5,000 feet height loss. Reduce to VER before starting the
approach.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg
ex fcom-3 rj85.jpg (47.2 KB, 138 views)

Last edited by vmandr; 2nd Dec 2016 at 02:42.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 02:38
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cappt View Post
Probably more like 2.6 or 14000'
MDE is 7000'
It's moot, they dove it in.
I stand corrected.

the height available to MDE was 2.6 nm, and not 2 nm

So he he needed a 10:1 ratio do get to the airfield.

And crashed at 7:1.

Thats really sad. He might have made it. More lives could be spared.


I guess that with the audio FDR we will find out if the thought the VOR was the runway.

IF there is any audio available. In Brazil 2 years ago a governor running for president died in a Cessna jet that had the audio FR was not working. It had audio from like 1 week before the accident.

Yes, this is south america
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 02:39
  #403 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vmandr View Post
fcom-3 all engines inop
Thanks vmandr, sadly, that seems to indicate that with 19 miles to track from 21000 feet and no wind they might just have made it - everything else being perfect.

Which, clearly, it wasn't.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 02:43
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting article by The Economist, usually a very reliable source of information:

"It is not clear how or why the last-minute change in flight plan was approved. According to El Deber, a Bolivian newspaper, airport officials in Santa Cruz de la Sierra raised several questions about it. Mr Quiroga reportedly made various verbal guarantees that the plane had enough fuel for the trip.

Other considerations may have been on the pilot’s mind. Mr Quiroga was a co-owner of Lamia airlines. As such he had a unique set of incentives in this situation. Postponing a chartered flight in a time-sensitive industry is not good for business. Once in the air, telling officials that the plane is running out of fuel is less than desirable: the penalty for any firm being caught flouting regulations is huge. It is too early to say whether such factors played a part in his decision-making.

It is also unclear why a top-tier football team was flying to a major sporting event with an airline like Lamia in the first place. The firm was founded in 2009 in Mérida, a small city in western Venezuela. Last year Lamia Bolivia, a separate business entity, was set up. The airline claims to specialise in chartered flights, particularly for football teams. The only functioning plane it has ever owned is the 17-year-old jet that crashed into the muddy Colombian mountainside.

The players of Chapecoense were not the only footballers to fly with Lamia. Few airlines provide chartered flights in Latin America, and none does it cheaper. “A flight that another company charges you $100,000 for, Lamia offered for $60,000,” an industry insider told La Nacion, an Argentine newspaper."

Fuel folly: Why the Chapecoense football team?s plane ran out of fuel | The Economist

Last edited by AndyJS; 2nd Dec 2016 at 03:02.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 02:54
  #405 (permalink)  

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Very unprofessional (especially for a commercial crew), but I bet many pilots have landed with less than 10 min of fuel left without declaring an emergency (and kept it secret to themselves).
No, not many proffesional pilots have done that. You on crack or just ignorant?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 02:59
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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The number of aerial filming accidents makes it's clear that the pressure/glamour of being associated with TV, corrupts flight safety.

From the planning stage onwards, producers are very persuasive.

With this in mind who actually charted the flight, the Football team or the TV Network?

Was the pilot given ample warning that TV crew and production staff were to be onboard?

Were the (reported but not confirmed) technical crew carrying large amounts of camera gear?
Enough to cover the match or just a few interview cameras?

Were interviews conducted on the flight deck during the flight?

Did the (possible) prescence of a camera (GoPro or manned) on the flight deck deter the pilot from declaring a fuel emergency?


Mickjoebill
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 03:01
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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Some more information from a reliable source:

"Brazil’s aviation authority, ANAC, said Tuesday morning that the LaMia airline had asked permission to fly directly from Brazil to Colombia, but the request was denied on the basis of international aviation agreements. An ANAC spokesman said under these agreements a charter flight between two countries can’t be operated by an airline from a third country."

Plane Carrying Brazilian Soccer Team Crashes in Colombia; At Least 70 Killed - WSJ
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 03:06
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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a few words about flight planning.

seems that sometimes 'we can do it' attitude, supported by a piece of paper (cfp, ofp) goes a long way with crews and AROs.
this story could have stopped right at dep airport.
dont know if they used a cfp and if that cfp gave same figure for eet and endurance.
if it did then maybe it is time for the cfp provider to re-arrange the algorithms to not allow eet = endurance.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 03:10
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mickjoebill View Post
The number of aerial filming accidents makes it's clear that the pressure/glamour of being associated with TV, corrupts flight safety.

From the planning stage onwards, producers are very persuasive.

With this in mind who actually charted the flight, the Football team or the TV Network?

Was the pilot given ample warning that TV crew and production staff were to be onboard?

Were the (reported but not confirmed) technical crew carrying large amounts of camera gear?
Enough to cover the match or just a few interview cameras?

Were interviews conducted on the flight deck during the flight?

Did the (possible) prescence of a camera (GoPro or manned) on the flight deck deter the pilot from declaring a fuel emergency?


Mickjoebill
- The Football Team

- This air company was used of transporting south american football team. The pilot itself as the owner, knew who they were transporting, of course. And the crew too. The airplane is painted with Chapecoense badge and some colors

- No cameras gear, only small I presume. The cameras used in the match are from the Colombian TV that covers the game in medellin. This is common in soccer games. Each stadium has it own cameras from a local network.

- During the flight no idea. But before the flight, yes.

- I woulnt assume that. Problems happen. But in this case it was intentional, so the pilot covered it due to penalties , with or without cameras.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 03:42
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Very similar to Virgin VA-1384 in Mildura. Almost ran out of fuel after priority was given to another Qantas 737.

At one time MH had their 747s landing at LHR with little more than fumes.

Perhaps these incidences happen more often than what the public thinks?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 04:17
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FL11967 View Post
Very similar to Virgin VA-1384 in Mildura. Almost ran out of fuel after priority was given to another Qantas 737.

At one time MH had their 747s landing at LHR with little more than fumes.

Perhaps these incidences happen more often than what the public thinks?
Except VOZ1384 flew from Sydney to Adelaide. Found the weather to be below legal minimums, then diverted to Mildura, flew an approach, went around, and then flew a second approach and landed, then taxied to the apron on their own power.

They did not takeoff from Sydney without enough fuel to actually get to Adelaide, then crash well short of the runway after gliding the first approach without fuel on board.

But yea, similar if you really stretch the definition.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 04:54
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FL11967 View Post
Very similar to Virgin VA-1384 in Mildura. Almost ran out of fuel after priority was given to another Qantas 737.

At one time MH had their 747s landing at LHR with little more than fumes.

Perhaps these incidences happen more often than what the public thinks?
No, I don't think planes crashing because they have run out of fuel is happening more often than the public thinks. As has already been pointed out this is in no way similar the the Virgin incident. Well except a plane was involved.

After the earlier post about Ryanair, where does all this nonsense come from? Ryanair were perfectly legal and as was even noted in the post diverted to 2 different airports and still landed safely. That's the difference between carrying enough fuel and not carrying enough fuel. This flight was actually planned - it's there on the plan - so that if a single nautical mile extra was required it couldn't make it. Consider that for a second.

I'd like to see the evidence for MH apparently routinely landing at LHR below legal minimums?
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 05:27
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"LaMia Airline's general manager, Gustavo Vargas Gamboa, and the head of Bolivia's Civil Aviation National Registry are father and son. Vargas Gamboa, the father, denied that the family ties allow him or his company any special benefits. "For this reason, I am not a partner, I'm a general manager," Vargas Gamboa said, explaining he does not own any company assets."

Colombia plane crash: Jet without fuel, crew member said - CNN.com
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 05:28
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by neila83 View Post
I'd like to see the evidence for MH apparently routinely landing at LHR below legal minimums?
there was a lot of talk about this back in about 1999
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 05:30
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I'd like to see the evidence for MH apparently routinely landing at LHR below legal minimums?
It's pretty easy to put "Malaysian low fuel Heathrow" into Google and come up with a string of articles

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...o-years-51332/
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 07:11
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Without doubt, the global aviation community is standing on the side of the contoller... I have just set up a Go Fund Me on her behalf, the limk can be found here https://www.gofundme.com/controller-of-the-lamia-crash Please, Help me with the wording, if I can express the sentiment better, I will. Thank you all
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 07:31
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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I am proposing this crowd funding to go entirely to the controller that dealt so very professionally with 2 emergencies at Medellin one of which, through negligence, resulted in the deaths of many people.
That sentence is a little ambiguous and could seem to imply the negligence was on her part.

Might like to reword to suggest "through no fault of her own", but its friday arvo in aussie and I've had one too many lagers, so ...
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 07:47
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TowerDog View Post
No, not many proffesional pilots have done that. You on crack or just ignorant?
Maybe not "many" professionals do it, but some do. A flight from Rio to Lisbon by a major airline landed in Lisbon with zero fuel and had to be towed out of the runway.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:09
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Thank you Unworry.. I have changed the tesx to... Through no negligence of her own.

https://www.gofundme.com/controller-of-the-lamia-crash

Enjoy the VBs

Last edited by JumpJumpJump; 2nd Dec 2016 at 09:07.
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Old 2nd Dec 2016, 08:33
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On my post 367 wondered if the investigation into this disaster would have included a p.m. of the aircrew. Broadreach of Sao Paulo and dmba of Brazil replied that no way would a party atmosphere in the aircraft have indicated alcohol might have been involved. Nonetheless it is unusual that in a disaster very seldom can a proper p.m. of the crew be undertaken. In this accident because no fire was involved, it should be possible to set at rest any suggestion that the PIC was not fit to fly.
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