Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.


Old 21st Nov 2016, 13:24
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Burgherville
Posts: 47
Mayday issued (because it was later cancelled) and choice of airfield questionable. Might be nearest but was the emergency so bad that you would choose it ? Cat 1, no problem but asking for cat 11 or cat 11, airfieled surrounded by some serious bits of earth (called the Swiss Alps) and an approach not easy in CAVOK !
Lets start at the beginning;
Mayday issued. Do you think it shouldn't have been because you appear to suggest that?
Airfield questionable; Why? It's a company destination, they probably have experience of it and it was close with multiple landing options and suitable weather.
Was the emergency so bad that you would choose it; Yes, it's a red and see above.
Cat 1; What's wrong with asking for the autoland? If the smoke continues and visibility becomes a problem, it's a potential life saver. An auto land will also control the RoD which may be a factor (it is on the 777 for overweight) although that's not necessarily a consideration depending on the circumstances.
Swiss Alps; So what? They're approaching from the north where the terrain is lower and under radar control.
An approach not easy in CAVOK; Sorry, I call on that one!
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 15:34
  #22 (permalink)  
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I thought my reply to Slow Jet was quite measured and I apologise to him for offering a PM copy of the checklist.... blimey what an angry man, I thought I was being helpful, calling me a self righteous twerp indeed.

The checklist runs through a number of items and the source may be found and secured bringing an end to the immediate emergency. - TDODAR anyone?

Last edited by Capt Ecureuil; 21st Nov 2016 at 18:17. Reason: To add the full insult for added effect
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 16:49
  #23 (permalink)  
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you have to remember this was once a pilots forum.............
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 16:56
  #24 (permalink)  
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Slow Jet, that has to be one of the most comical rants of self promotion I've seen in a long time. Wow, you fly heavy jets?? AND are a TRE?? You must be unique on this forum. And despite that, you manage to utterly embarrass yourself. Low self esteem, perhaps? Never got that long-haul 777 command, perhaps?

Yet another example of why we shouldn't drink and post.
Well done to the QR crew!
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 17:18
  #25 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by 45989 View Post
you have to remember this was once a pilots forum.............
As one who sits down the blunt end these days...all I can say is that I ever find myself in a situation like has been described, I would like to think that the folks up front were as capable of dealing with the problem and able to adjust their strategy as the situation changed, as these guys were. I would hope that they could call on the calm, unflustered help from a professional ATC team just like the one we heard on the feed.

Well done to all involved in this incident.
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 17:21
  #26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by zerograv View Post
Miami - Doha
Over Switzerland still has fuel to dump?
Does the 773 also dumps fuel from wing tanks?
good point - I have no 777 experience but I'm surprised the A/C would still be overweight at that point - do we have any 777 drivers who could clear that one up?
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 17:34
  #27 (permalink)  
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It is not uncommon for the ac to be taking off at 351 tons and max landing weight is 251,290, so very normal to be overweight in Europe when taking off from USA.
Normally much more of a problem for 777LR which has essentially the same takeoff weight but a landing weight 28 tons less(223167kgs)
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 19:07
  #28 (permalink)  
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Haha slowjet, impressive back pedalling. You can tell us you have 200,000 hours on the space shuttle, it does not make your original post any less appalling.
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 19:35
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 1999
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I hate trainers like slowjet who pitch scenarios that "make you think" which basically means you must think like me or my hovering pen will tick fail.
IMHO he wasn't there so how the **** does he know what they were really dealing with. Aeroplanes very rarely fail in a text book fashion.
As for trainers in my experience if you throw something at them on the sim they Havn't seen before they are the same as everyone else floundering around making the best of it as demonstrated by the botched go around on the 757 posted elsware on this forum.
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 20:18
  #30 (permalink)  
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Location: Oxford, UK
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In terms of possible unhappy outcomes, smoke in the cockpit has to be pretty high up on the list. You chaps that fly 777 and other heavy transports, can you tell me more about using the oxygen masks: when I have been flying at high altitudes and used a mask, always had a problem using the radio as well.
How does your emergency breathing mask deal with this? any problems? are they fit for purpose or need improvement? I assume they are often replaced and you try them on and practice using them?
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 20:36
  #31 (permalink)  
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They're fine in all ways. Practice using them in the sim, not on the aircraft.

Can't say how often they're physically checked by engineering but we check the oxy flow as part of the pre-flight.
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 20:46
  #32 (permalink)  
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What`s wrong with dumping fuel, if they did so above 4000 feet. 15 miles from Zurich at 35,000 feet, landed in 25 minutes. Perfectly sensible choice I`d have thought.
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Old 21st Nov 2016, 21:31
  #33 (permalink)  
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Slowjet- If you're British then I am disappointed with your post. The job was clearly professional, the crew response was in accordance with the information they had available to them at each given moment. The result was the desired outcome.

Good job Gentlemen, well done!

I remember criticism of sullenberger at one former British Airline a few years ago, I found that truly disappointing as well.
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Old 22nd Nov 2016, 04:13
  #34 (permalink)  
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Location: U.K.
Posts: 82
Well Done both flight deck and Swiss ATC ....

Listening to the tape, it is indication of cool professionalism under a potentially very serious situation ...

Good Job ...
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Old 22nd Nov 2016, 08:59
  #35 (permalink)  
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Mary they vary a great deal as do procedures ..from two handed in a compartment and very rarely donned outside of the sim to one handed, full faced and suspended from the ceiling.
One of my mates was a bearded ex V bomber skipper and he was advised to shave as the mask wouldn't seal.
I can assure you it ain't anything like gliders and would give anyone claustrophobia. We did an exercise on the sim..non toxic smoke, O2 mask plus smoke goggles which had a liberal scrubbing with a Brillo pad to leave a very small clear area and not helped because I have to wear my spectacles. It was similar to varifocals with a pinpoint field of view which meant the peripheral vision is non existent and very difficult even to read the checklists which had to be done with a torch.
A mate had fire in the overhead panel..emergency bus panel..after take off in the climb below 10,000ft...did a 180 and iirc an auto land down wind. Severely burnt his hand and it was only when the CC came in to ask about evacuation that they realised that they had got the fire out as the whole of the cockpit was covered with ash.

Had two real smoke incidents my first with a Lasham pilot whose last power flight was in a Lanc and terminated over the Reich..I can assure you that it scared the shit out of me.

As to Slowjet...that he proudly states he is an ex TRE/IR and selection says everything...the safest place for some pilots is in the office and one of the very few guys I had to take control from was of his class.
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Old 22nd Nov 2016, 13:55
  #36 (permalink)  
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As still no answer about fuel dumping on 777:

. main tanks (wings) can be dumped in the same time center tank is dumped (if still fuel in center tank) Center of gravity limits are computed and dumping stops if off limits.

. possible still overweight after 9 hours. Exact fuel figures are needed.

. 777 is known to have some issues with jettisson noszzle valves, some times stuck closed, quite never checked in maintenance.
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Old 22nd Nov 2016, 15:55
  #37 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: London
Posts: 373
Second attempt to answer some questions as first deleted by mods. The backlash was serious and sometimes personal. Here goes again for the right of reply.

I have to say I larfed out loud at GEAR DOWN's offering (hey Mods, what is NOT invalid about his ?) but I feel I have been trolled down P---k alley rather than Flak Alley.

Blind Pew : Sorry to learn you once had to take-over from an Office boy like me. Sadly, I have had to take over many times from folk like you.

Finally, those of you misplaced journalists who reckon a good job was done because people walked away; are you the same rentamob that reckoned the SQ fire evac was well handled because everyone walked away? Thought as much.

Opener was about the Av Herald report and several things caught my eye. 15nm N of ZRH and decision to land at airfield right under your feet from 35000ft makes it very serious. If it was THAT serious, why bother to dump fuel? They tried, then it didn't work, then it did & they were still dumping 16 miles on Final..........WHY ?

After all that, still dumping, they requested MORE track miles at 16nm on final. Nice little cross country accommodated by ATC to squeeze them in.

Mcshiek ; Just read the post again ole mate. No, won't help. I never suggested a Mayday was incorrect or not valid or not declared. In fact, I confirmed that a Mayday was declared because, later, it was cancelled.

Thank you,

Last edited by T28B; 22nd Nov 2016 at 23:05. Reason: Removed a couple of cheap shots; play the ball not the man
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Old 22nd Nov 2016, 18:21
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2016
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Mayday issued (because it was later cancelled) and choice of airfield questionable.
slojet old mate�� Yes, you did say a mayday was declared. But you included it with stating the airfield was questionable, hence my question as to whether you were implying it was incorrect to use that call.

Allow me to rephrase: Were you saying it was wrong to call mayday?
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Old 22nd Nov 2016, 20:02
  #39 (permalink)  
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I find all this tit tat on this this discussion so disappointing where some have felt the need to use unnecessary adjectives and display their plumage.
The outstanding quality of any person who has attained any degree of seniority in such a critical field of human endeavour is "humility", alongside of which sits "tolerance". There is no room for bigotry in the development of such essential qualities.
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Old 23rd Nov 2016, 09:10
  #40 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2009
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I totally agree. Those who have not been in situations similar to that handled by the Qatar crew in question should be very wary of making unsubstantiated criticisms. A little humility goes a very long way.
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