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China Southern A380 Prang LAX

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China Southern A380 Prang LAX

Old 12th Nov 2016, 17:02
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sorry to continue the drift but, I am still looking for a rationale answer to the question: "what added safety provides to initiate the after start checklist only after the clear signal from the ground crew instead of doing the after start checklist, wait for the clear signal and then ask for taxi clearance? "

I mean, is it so difficult to give an easy explanation? I know plenty of airlines (none of them brits, but that is another matter entirely) that do and off course writes in FCOM and OM B exactly the latest and works like a charm.

it's interesting that nobody seems to be patient enough to bring forward a simple explanation on this specific point.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 17:31
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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From the pictures it looks to me as if the tow-bar is still connected.
Perhaps it was overloaded by a combination of having the engines started before, or during, the push and a high steering angle.
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 17:55
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sorry to continue the drift but, I am still looking for a rationale answer to the question: "what added safety provides to initiate the after start checklist only after the clear signal from the ground crew instead of doing the after start checklist, wait for the clear signal and then ask for taxi clearance?
One reason would be that with a well-designed procedure/checklist you have two chances at getting it right: the procedure (check crew clear) and the checklist (are the crew clear?).

You have to omit both of these to be caught out, as opposed to just a single error in skipping straight to taxi clearance having completed a checklist that didn’t include “crew clear” as an item...
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 19:17
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You have to omit both of these to be caught out, as opposed to just a single error in skipping straight to taxi clearance having completed a checklist that didn’t include “crew clear” as an item...
That's a very good point but relies on the item being on the checklist.

Concerning the event, could we expect to see any public report published in the future? Or is it all kept hush hush?
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Old 12th Nov 2016, 19:43
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Yes, I'd also concur with FullWings point.
It's still the one you haven't thought about that gets you, or not being careful enough, or not being sensitive to concerns of your crew.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 01:51
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it is the ideal tractor to handle pushback and towing requirements for all wide-body aircraft (except A380)
I'm surprised that nobody has commented on the tug manufacturer's brochure statement.

TUG GT110 aircraft pushback

My bet is on the tug being the offending operator, not the aircraft crew.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 02:54
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G-ARZG commented on the GT110 (back on page 1).

There were (unconfirmed) reports on social media yesterday that the tow bar snapped during push back, causing the tug to subsequently crash into the nose gear with substantial force.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 06:26
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Originally Posted by fox niner
And besides, why such a hurry? Perhaps they were trying to save 20 seconds
Perhaps they were trying to be courteous to the other ramp occupants: That's 20 fewer seconds that everyone else has to look at a hideously ugly aircraft.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 06:49
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There were (unconfirmed) reports on social media yesterday that the tow bar snapped during push back, causing the tug to subsequently crash into the nose gear with substantial force.
Farcebook "report"?? What is confirmed by the picture is that the aeroplane ran over the tug, not the other way round!

Originally Posted by Basil
I think that, if you want to be taken seriously, you should moderate your language.
Perhaps if people want to be taken seriously, they shouldn't dismiss, out of hand, a procedure that would in all probability have prevented this. To hop on here, as Flarearmed did, and rip into ACMS' comments beggars belief.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 06:59
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Originally Posted by peekay4
G-ARZG commented on the GT110 (back on page 1).

There were (unconfirmed) reports on social media yesterday that the tow bar snapped during push back, causing the tug to subsequently crash into the nose gear with substantial force.
Looks like the tow tug had not completed the push back. From the pictures,the aircraft was not on the center line yet. Not sure whether LAX allows engines start prior to completion of push back.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 07:01
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Flarearmed:----

Mate, I heard this myself on YMML ground not once but twice. They could not get the flight crew to look out the window and wave off the ground crew.

Second fact:- YMML ATC ( Ground 121.9 ) at most pushback locations for widebodies WILL NOT give a Taxy clearance UNTIL the Tug crew report "Clear" away from the Aircraft and off the taxyway.

Now, I operate a lot in China and elsewhere, it's not normally a problem.

These guys didn't understand ground asking them to wave off the ground crew OUT THE WINDOW, so there they sat.

In my little outfit we have learnt the hard way after mistakes were made, yes mistakes were made and hopefully addressed so PEOPLE DON'T GET KILLED.
We do not action the after start checklist until the wave off, the last item on that Checklist is ----Ground Crew clear, then we request Taxy.......very simple.

It's not rocket science, this procedure was developed because previously mistakes were made.....another Swiss Cheese hole hopefully closed.

It may be fine when you are in the Cockpit mate but it's when you aren't that there seems to be an Airmanship problem.

Last edited by ACMS; 13th Nov 2016 at 07:13.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 07:12
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Oh and another thing.......

It's not unusual to hear foreign carriers requesting taxy clearance in HKG while the ground crew are still at the nosewheel. ATC have come back and said, "Confirm your ground crew are still connected?"
They too have Eyes and Binoculars and can see....

This practice has to stop.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 08:36
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Yes, a bit like "Ready for start."
ATC notes stairs still on etc etc hence this "Fully ready" stuff we had.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 09:09
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Yes that happens in HK too.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 10:56
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Can ATC actually see that much from where they are?
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 12:02
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On certain bays yes directly and other bays with cameras if need be.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 12:08
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That tug is far too small to push an A380

I wouldn't use it for anything more than an A330 safely

My guess is once the engines started the tug was still at an angle and the plane Pushed the tug
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 17:50
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"The Little Tug that Couldn't?"
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 21:14
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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My tuppence worth...

Speaking from personal experience when I was almost chopped into small pieces by an ATP and colleagues gripping the concrete with their finger nails when a 747 taxied before clearance and the no.2 engine went over the top of them!

We rely on you guys to follow SOPS to keep us safe.

sorry, but I do not see the point. Why wait for the hand signal before doing the checklist???? You do the checklist (you are not moving and the park brake is set) then, AFTER you receive the hand signal you request taxi.
Some A330 operators set flaps after engine start, this sends the engines to flight idle. Not particularly unsafe perhaps but on a greasy wet night, it's another hole in the cheese.


Perhaps they were trying to be courteous to the other ramp occupants: That's 20 fewer seconds that everyone else has to look at a hideously ugly aircraft.
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Old 13th Nov 2016, 21:17
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps the Japanese custom of the ground crew lining up and waving isn't just politeness?
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