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American 763 takeoff incident, ORD

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American 763 takeoff incident, ORD

Old 2nd Nov 2016, 17:07
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Another way to put it is as follows: what is the minimum time from a plane stopping to when an evac can begin (without running engines interfering with slides) assuming all the checklist items begun immediately and are executed without difficulty? Is this possible within 20 seconds? Or does it take 40+ seconds? If the former, it would appear that there was some delay in commencing or difficulty in performing the checklists.
There are many checklists. But if at any time the PIC feels that an immediate evac is required, then the Evacuation checklist can be executed in seconds. Typically set flaps / brakes / spoilers, check plane depressurized, cut engines and evac. That's it.

So any delay would not be because the Evacuation checklist is too long. However the pilots might not have felt or known that an immediate evac was necessary. They could have been going through a different checklist (e.g., Engine Fire checklist), communicating with cabin, ATC and fire crews, etc., etc.
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Old 2nd Nov 2016, 19:28
  #122 (permalink)  
 
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I don't think this is behind the AvWeek paywall:
Probe Continues Into American CF6 Failure | Commercial Aviation content from Aviation Week


(NTSB) investigators, aided by GE, are analyzing remains from the 1998-built No.2 (right) engine, which the manufacturer describes as containing “very high-cycle discs.” The NTSB, which reported Oct. 29 that at that stage 90% of the disk had been recovered, is focusing on identifying potential faults with the metallurgy, machining and forging of the part, as well as the specific bill of materials of the failed engine.
Apparently the first failure of a CF6 second stage turbine disc.
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Old 2nd Nov 2016, 20:21
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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In considering crew action the more important consideration than pax evacuation is the crew action in abandoning the t/o. Where precisely on the rwy did the aircraft came to a stop. That might give us an idea as to how soon after commencing the roll the failure occurred and the time involved in the decision. After all had the crew not acted promptly and correctly pax evacuation may well have been academic.
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Old 2nd Nov 2016, 22:17
  #124 (permalink)  
 
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The left overwing slide was blown roughly 20 seconds after the plane stopped.
As the over wing exits are the small escape doors, it would almost certainly have been opened by a passenger.
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Old 2nd Nov 2016, 22:36
  #125 (permalink)  
 
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(NTSB) investigators, aided by GE, are analyzing remains from the 1998-built No.2 (right) engine, which the manufacturer describes as containing very high-cycle discs. The NTSB, which reported Oct. 29 that at that stage 90% of the disk had been recovered, is focusing on identifying potential faults with the metallurgy, machining and forging of the part, as well as the specific bill of materials of the failed engine.
It's not too soon to already know the answers to above , but the how and why take a lot longer and only then the what to do as a result follows.
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Old 2nd Nov 2016, 23:02
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by mrdeux View Post
As the over wing exits are the small escape doors, it would almost certainly have been opened by a passenger.
At least some 767-300s have cabin crew stationed by the overwing exits. I know that's the case on ANA (toilet in front of the first overwing, with 2 CC seats on the back wall/by the first door, divider between the exits, normal passenger seat aft of the second exit). Not too sure about the AA 763, seatmaps suggest this isn't the case there.
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 02:36
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Chronus View Post
In considering crew action the more important consideration than pax evacuation is the crew action in abandoning the t/o. Where precisely on the rwy did the aircraft came to a stop. That might give us an idea as to how soon after commencing the roll the failure occurred and the time involved in the decision. After all had the crew not acted promptly and correctly pax evacuation may well have been academic.
Don't know where they stopped. UPS parks in the SE cargo ramp just about due south of the departure end of 15. I'm thinking a turbine wheel would travel perpendicular to the runway. ORD normally departs on 28R-10L. Either way the UPS ramp is abeam the midpoint of the runway. But ORD often also departs most traffic 10L at CC or 28R at EE unless the aircraft needs all 13,000 feet.
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 03:58
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MarkerInbound View Post
But ORD often also departs most traffic 10L at CC or 28R at EE unless the aircraft needs all 13,000 feet.
From earlier in the thread:

Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
AA 383 Heavy cleared into position at N5 on 28R, then cleared for takeoff, left turn heading 220, wind 200 at 14.

More here starting at 00:27 into the recording, including reports of sparks on the takeoff roll from another aircraft:

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/ko...2016-1930Z.mp3
Here's a current KORD runway diagram:

http://aeronav.faa.gov/d-tpp/1611/00...df#search=KORD
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 04:25
  #129 (permalink)  
 
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Clearly; shutting down the engines is a vital part of that; however -the moment the generators trip offline everything goes black. We need to ensure everything else is ready before shutting power off...
In about five steps, everything is going to go black anyway. What you need to do is make sure you have a power source hooked up to the PA so you can command the evacuation...
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 05:09
  #130 (permalink)  
 
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Who orders the exits opened?

I am in a SWA exit row seat about 2 times per week. I get the briefing which always includes " no crew member will be here to assist you" . No where do they say "wait till the crew orders the emergency exits opened" or anything to that effect. The passengers are referred to the emergency card which says check for fire or smoke before opening the exit.

So the passenger adjacent to the over wing exit is not expecting a command, simply to check for the presence of fire and smoke. So maybe it is not surprising the exit was opened before the engine was shut down.

Next flight I will listen to see if they say when to open the exit.
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 09:42
  #131 (permalink)  
 
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I recently flew pax on a BA 787, first time on a 78. Looking at the escape plan, there appeared to be no overwing exits. Anyone know why ?
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 09:49
  #132 (permalink)  
 
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all wide bodies in recent years have only large doors type 1 exits often big enough for double lane slides
as so did older DC10 and Tristar and A300 types

even the A321 does not have exit windows but only 8 full doors

the 767-200 and 300 were unique in having variants with only 2 or 4 over wing exits of the same size as 707-737 types -
But most other 767-300 versions have 8 full doors and no window hatches such as Britannia and BA's 767-300's
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 10:17
  #133 (permalink)  
 
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Unless the config has changed recently AA 767-300s don't have a crew member by the over wing exits.
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 15:24
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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its a long walk from door 1 back to door 2 on a 767-300 of AA

there are 2 pairs of overwing exits on the AA 763 versions which we saw used on this incident which lead to a large slide going off down the back of the wing

are there any crew seated in any centre area galleys? (not sure if they have them)

on other versions of 763 such as those with BA and Thomson there are no over wing exits but have main doors at 1 and 2 ahead of the wing and emer exit door 3 and a main door 4 aft of the wing
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 16:28
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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They may be seated forward of the center galley but not close to the overwing exits see https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Am...ng_767-300.php
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 16:56
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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As SLF scum I prefer an exit-row seat and thus have heard a bag of 'briefings'. Almost all are two steps: "Tell me you're willing and able" and "Look at the pretty pictures on the safety card". Exactly 1.0 times an FA took a moment to explain how to operate the door. I'm pretty sure that was a European carrier. Here in the colonies we don't want to even briefly entertain thoughts that accidents do happen.

I doubt that most amateur door-sitters even realize that there will come a very persuasive "Evacuate! Evacuate!" call when the moment arrives.
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 19:26
  #137 (permalink)  
 
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Well I travel eight times a month at least on a variety of African carriers - Kenya Airways, SAA, Ethiopian, Arik, Air Zimbabwe... I'm 6'4 (1m.94 for the non-english speakers) and so I always ask for, and usually get, a window exit seat. In almost every case I get a comprehensive briefing, asking if I am prepared to open the door if necessary, explaining fire, smoke, debris problems, shown how the door works (pull this lever, hold here, twist and turn, it's quite heavy, are you comfortable with this?)
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 19:27
  #138 (permalink)  
 
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Right, wrong or otherwise, I suspect that about one second after somebody on the left side of the plane looks out the window and yells, "Fire!" that the person on the right hand side is going to be reaching to pull the window exit.
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 19:36
  #139 (permalink)  
 
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then on a W/B 763 with window exits there should be a CC seated there?
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Old 3rd Nov 2016, 20:33
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I believe those over wing exits are locked through an electric circuit and can only be opened once the flight deck (or cabin crew?) removes power to the lock, or power is disrupted (crash). So is it not part of the process that for the over wing exits to be opened the crew had to activate the de-lock device? (or when the LH engine was shut down power to the lock was automatically disrupted). Am I missing something or is it possible to open the over wing exit under some other method?
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