Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

American 763 takeoff incident, ORD

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

American 763 takeoff incident, ORD

Old 30th Oct 2016, 19:05
  #81 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: N5552.0W00419.0ish
Posts: 86
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rog
ATC recording says skipper announcing to tower we are evacuating about 2 mins or less after stopping
Ah, but is that because the aircraft was being evacuated, or because he had commanded an evacuation?

On a CRM course, not so very long ago, there was a robust discussion with some highly opinionated but otherwise limited experience cabin crew. The subject was the length of time from when an aborted takeoff occurred, to when the cabin were informed of the next action, beyond 'cabin crew at stations'.
So an exercise was run in a cabin trainer, to demonstrate how long it might be before word went from the flight deck to the cabin, beyond the 'at stations' announcement.

The outcome of this was some ruffled feathers among certain 'senior' cabin crew, who felt that they should be consulted immediately upon stopping, otherwise they would have to initiate an evacuation. Waiting even 30seconds being an eternity, and totally unacceptable in their opinion.


ps. Rog. Is that deepest darkest Darsit, or another one.
Lancelot de boyles is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2016, 19:35
  #82 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Teesside
Posts: 500
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Anyone else, apart from me, having reflections on this event in the light of the British Airtours 737 event at Manchester in 1985?

This could have ended very differently.

Some of the survivors of the Manchester accident got to the over-wing exits by counting seat rows as they called along the floor.

As I watch the videos, I think, "where are the fire service?", never mind the skipper's decision.
Midland 331 is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2016, 20:16
  #83 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
as i mentioned above in my posts the wind was in their favour - not so in MAN sadly in 1985 - the wind played a major part in the early cabin breach

the wind also saved the recent SQ and EK 777 and Dynamic 767 incidents from being a cabin inferno and,or smoke nightmare

fire service arrived after about 3 mins or so after stopping and the EVAC had commenced - engines were not turned off before EVAC started
rog747 is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2016, 20:21
  #84 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: UK
Age: 65
Posts: 462
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lancelot de boyles View Post
Ah, but is that because the aircraft was being evacuated, or because he had commanded an evacuation?

On a CRM course, not so very long ago, there was a robust discussion with some highly opinionated but otherwise limited experience cabin crew. The subject was the length of time from when an aborted takeoff occurred, to when the cabin were informed of the next action, beyond 'cabin crew at stations'.
So an exercise was run in a cabin trainer, to demonstrate how long it might be before word went from the flight deck to the cabin, beyond the 'at stations' announcement.

The outcome of this was some ruffled feathers among certain 'senior' cabin crew, who felt that they should be consulted immediately upon stopping, otherwise they would have to initiate an evacuation. Waiting even 30seconds being an eternity, and totally unacceptable in their opinion.


ps. Rog. Is that deepest darkest Darsit, or another one.
lol yes Dorset

The skipper told ATC he was doing an EVAC because they asked him what he was doing

have a listen to ATC feed its in an early post on here
rog747 is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2016, 20:59
  #85 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Not just good luck with winds, these disc separation events have somewhat random outcomes, a cabin penetration is always on the cards. That 767 run up at lax was a tarmac bounce, Qantas 32's disc became 3 pieces in an instant but fortunately none into the cabin. Sometimes, not so lucky, delta 1288.
morbos is offline  
Old 30th Oct 2016, 22:37
  #86 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: flyover country USA
Age: 80
Posts: 4,579
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Physics says there will always be three pieces.
barit1 is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 00:50
  #87 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
only if its above it burst limits in either temp or speed ..... most are not

But some turbine disks ala the A380 are

and if 3 equal pieces they will go off in 3 equal directions. So having found one piece you know where the others have to be (Newtonian physics)
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 03:28
  #88 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,899
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by barit1 View Post
Physics says there will always be three pieces.
Can you cite a reference for that claim?
Airbubba is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 05:45
  #89 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Video of AA383 coming to a stop and inflation of the over-the-wing slide within ~ 20 seconds of stopping.

https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts777/...94272431185920
surfman96 is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 08:30
  #90 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Reading, UK
Posts: 14,627
Likes: 0
Received 29 Likes on 13 Posts
Originally Posted by barit1 View Post
Physics says there will always be three pieces.
I'd love to read that proof too.
DaveReidUK is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 11:06
  #91 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,389
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
and if 3 equal pieces they will go off in 3 equal directions. So having found one piece you know where the others have to be (Newtonian physics)
Presumably you arrive at that by applying conservation of momentum to the disc in isolation. Might be valid for a failure in the air but I don't think you can ignore the possibility of external forces, especially when the event involves impact with the ground.
cwatters is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 13:15
  #92 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
Posts: 4,567
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Physics says there will always be three pieces.
Can you cite a reference for that claim?
if one removes the word "always" then the answer lies in:

For flywheel shaped disks (High speed turbines) the stress field between radial stress and tangential stress is relatively equal over much of the disk (not the OD or ID) and at overstress conditions when the disk fractures the maximiun energy state of each piece released (in translation and rotation) occurs at 127 degrees of arc of the pie shaped released sections.

Wont happen if the disk fractures from a gross single defect condition at normal speeds (expect one very large, one moderate and several small)
lomapaseo is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 21:26
  #93 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Between Foxrock and a hard place
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
That video from Twitter will have to be reviewed in depth by the airlines regarding who sits at the over wing exits and how clearly and definitively they are briefed by the Cabin Crew that they are to only open it under instruction from the captain or cabin crew over the PA.

So often I see wholly unsuitable passengers (for example, foreign passengers not from the airlines' country, 5 foot nothing women that don't know how heavy 33lbs is, passengers sleeping as soon as they get on etc.) sitting by the over wing exits.

Referencing the Twitter video with the oh my god screamy guy from page 1, it was a good minute from the left over wing exits opening to him escaping through door 1L when the number 1 was spooling down. That is so dangerous.
Such a long time to have passengers on a wing and behind an idling engine with the exhaust blast and heat etc.

As the co-pilot was asking Tower if they saw anything, the slide was being blown.

To our US pilots/AA pilots, in AA, is there an early PA to passengers (within 5 seconds, say, of stopping) saying something like, 'Everything is fine, we're dealing with it, give us a sec', or is their SOP to deal with everything first in cockpit, talk to cabin crew, tower, etc and then deal with the passengers?
sprite1 is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 22:05
  #94 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,914
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Not AA but US carrier. Our protocol for an abort is for the FO to go back after control txfer if need be and keep the pax seated, then to the FA's to assess and wait for the Captain's command. None of that precludes them from initiating an evac if it meet their criteria.
West Coast is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 22:21
  #95 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Between Foxrock and a hard place
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thanks West Coast.

It's quite different to our SOP, European Legacy, so.

Do you/are you permitted to go further rearward than the forward galley? I'd be thinking you'd get blocked by pax if the captain ordered an evac after speaking with you and the FA's or the situation degraded while you were in the cabin.

Interesting, all the same.

Also, what is your airline's thinking, having you step out into the cabin to get info that way? Do they feel the inter-phone introduces too much of a chance for confusion?

Cheers.
sprite1 is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 22:52
  #96 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: surfing, watching for sharks
Posts: 3,914
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Sprite

It's not addressed in our documents, assuming you mean as a part of an evaluation to determine whether an evac is warranted. As is, we rely on the FA's evaluation if it isn't such as being in pieces.

Communication is completed via interphone as long as it's operable.
West Coast is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 23:07
  #97 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Between Foxrock and a hard place
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ok, cheers. Understood.

Poor guys up the front must've got an awful shock seeing the pax evacuate before they shut the engines down.
sprite1 is offline  
Old 31st Oct 2016, 23:24
  #98 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Long Beach, CA
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
A second video shows the forward and rear doors opening, slides deploying, and first passengers down the forward slide.

https://twitter.com/Donnahdanoosh/st...91608451690496

Unfortunately, the Donnahdanoosh video doesn't appear to overlap the first FlightAlerts777 video (shows a/c stopping and over-wing slide deployment)

https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts777/...94272431185920

Added:

A third video shows what appears to be the first person down the rear door slide.

https://twitter.com/met_valpo/status/792100786364899329

Last edited by surfman96; 1st Nov 2016 at 00:29.
surfman96 is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2016, 02:05
  #99 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: PA
Age: 58
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In order to meet the required evac criteria, looks like the airlines will have to not allow carryon baggage...
underfire is offline  
Old 1st Nov 2016, 02:15
  #100 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Vermont
Age: 66
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
In the cockpit, you have two guys trying to assess, communicate with the cabin, make a decision that almost inevitably results in some kind of injury, and execute a 10 to 12 step checklist in an orderly manner...

In the cabin, you have 7 FA's and a boatload of pax awaiting a decision when it is painfully obvious to all what the answer is...this kind of intense pressure bears totally on the cabin crew. Given the obvious next move, obvious even to your average low-information passenger...you know, with the right wing fully engulfed in flames...how long should they wait?

There is no right answer. Bottom line is everybody got out. It wasn't necessarily as pretty as we might wish, but it worked. Now we need to think about how we get the cockpit SA and the cabin SA into alignment a helluva lot quicker.

One way is through continual monitoring of the cabin interphone with an SOP that says the cabin can simply pickup the phone and start talking...without all the chimes and secret signals...thus aligning the cockpit SA more quickly to what is going on in the cabin.

I will simply note that such was the SOP at this particular cockpit crew's previous employer...but that is not the SOP at the current employer...
Mansfield is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.