American 763 takeoff incident, ORD
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Originally Posted by rog
ATC recording says skipper announcing to tower we are evacuating about 2 mins or less after stopping
On a CRM course, not so very long ago, there was a robust discussion with some highly opinionated but otherwise limited experience cabin crew. The subject was the length of time from when an aborted takeoff occurred, to when the cabin were informed of the next action, beyond 'cabin crew at stations'.
So an exercise was run in a cabin trainer, to demonstrate how long it might be before word went from the flight deck to the cabin, beyond the 'at stations' announcement.
The outcome of this was some ruffled feathers among certain 'senior' cabin crew, who felt that they should be consulted immediately upon stopping, otherwise they would have to initiate an evacuation. Waiting even 30seconds being an eternity, and totally unacceptable in their opinion.
ps. Rog. Is that deepest darkest Darsit, or another one.
Anyone else, apart from me, having reflections on this event in the light of the British Airtours 737 event at Manchester in 1985?
This could have ended very differently.
Some of the survivors of the Manchester accident got to the over-wing exits by counting seat rows as they called along the floor.
As I watch the videos, I think, "where are the fire service?", never mind the skipper's decision.
This could have ended very differently.
Some of the survivors of the Manchester accident got to the over-wing exits by counting seat rows as they called along the floor.
As I watch the videos, I think, "where are the fire service?", never mind the skipper's decision.
as i mentioned above in my posts the wind was in their favour - not so in MAN sadly in 1985 - the wind played a major part in the early cabin breach
the wind also saved the recent SQ and EK 777 and Dynamic 767 incidents from being a cabin inferno and,or smoke nightmare
fire service arrived after about 3 mins or so after stopping and the EVAC had commenced - engines were not turned off before EVAC started
the wind also saved the recent SQ and EK 777 and Dynamic 767 incidents from being a cabin inferno and,or smoke nightmare
fire service arrived after about 3 mins or so after stopping and the EVAC had commenced - engines were not turned off before EVAC started
Ah, but is that because the aircraft was being evacuated, or because he had commanded an evacuation?
On a CRM course, not so very long ago, there was a robust discussion with some highly opinionated but otherwise limited experience cabin crew. The subject was the length of time from when an aborted takeoff occurred, to when the cabin were informed of the next action, beyond 'cabin crew at stations'.
So an exercise was run in a cabin trainer, to demonstrate how long it might be before word went from the flight deck to the cabin, beyond the 'at stations' announcement.
The outcome of this was some ruffled feathers among certain 'senior' cabin crew, who felt that they should be consulted immediately upon stopping, otherwise they would have to initiate an evacuation. Waiting even 30seconds being an eternity, and totally unacceptable in their opinion.
ps. Rog. Is that deepest darkest Darsit, or another one.
On a CRM course, not so very long ago, there was a robust discussion with some highly opinionated but otherwise limited experience cabin crew. The subject was the length of time from when an aborted takeoff occurred, to when the cabin were informed of the next action, beyond 'cabin crew at stations'.
So an exercise was run in a cabin trainer, to demonstrate how long it might be before word went from the flight deck to the cabin, beyond the 'at stations' announcement.
The outcome of this was some ruffled feathers among certain 'senior' cabin crew, who felt that they should be consulted immediately upon stopping, otherwise they would have to initiate an evacuation. Waiting even 30seconds being an eternity, and totally unacceptable in their opinion.
ps. Rog. Is that deepest darkest Darsit, or another one.
The skipper told ATC he was doing an EVAC because they asked him what he was doing
have a listen to ATC feed its in an early post on here
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Not just good luck with winds, these disc separation events have somewhat random outcomes, a cabin penetration is always on the cards. That 767 run up at lax was a tarmac bounce, Qantas 32's disc became 3 pieces in an instant but fortunately none into the cabin. Sometimes, not so lucky, delta 1288.
only if its above it burst limits in either temp or speed ..... most are not
But some turbine disks ala the A380 are
and if 3 equal pieces they will go off in 3 equal directions. So having found one piece you know where the others have to be (Newtonian physics)
But some turbine disks ala the A380 are
and if 3 equal pieces they will go off in 3 equal directions. So having found one piece you know where the others have to be (Newtonian physics)
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Video of AA383 coming to a stop and inflation of the over-the-wing slide within ~ 20 seconds of stopping.
https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts777/...94272431185920
https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts777/...94272431185920
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and if 3 equal pieces they will go off in 3 equal directions. So having found one piece you know where the others have to be (Newtonian physics)
Physics says there will always be three pieces.
Can you cite a reference for that claim?
For flywheel shaped disks (High speed turbines) the stress field between radial stress and tangential stress is relatively equal over much of the disk (not the OD or ID) and at overstress conditions when the disk fractures the maximiun energy state of each piece released (in translation and rotation) occurs at 127 degrees of arc of the pie shaped released sections.
Wont happen if the disk fractures from a gross single defect condition at normal speeds (expect one very large, one moderate and several small)
That video from Twitter will have to be reviewed in depth by the airlines regarding who sits at the over wing exits and how clearly and definitively they are briefed by the Cabin Crew that they are to only open it under instruction from the captain or cabin crew over the PA.
So often I see wholly unsuitable passengers (for example, foreign passengers not from the airlines' country, 5 foot nothing women that don't know how heavy 33lbs is, passengers sleeping as soon as they get on etc.) sitting by the over wing exits.
Referencing the Twitter video with the oh my god screamy guy from page 1, it was a good minute from the left over wing exits opening to him escaping through door 1L when the number 1 was spooling down. That is so dangerous.
Such a long time to have passengers on a wing and behind an idling engine with the exhaust blast and heat etc.
As the co-pilot was asking Tower if they saw anything, the slide was being blown.
To our US pilots/AA pilots, in AA, is there an early PA to passengers (within 5 seconds, say, of stopping) saying something like, 'Everything is fine, we're dealing with it, give us a sec', or is their SOP to deal with everything first in cockpit, talk to cabin crew, tower, etc and then deal with the passengers?
So often I see wholly unsuitable passengers (for example, foreign passengers not from the airlines' country, 5 foot nothing women that don't know how heavy 33lbs is, passengers sleeping as soon as they get on etc.) sitting by the over wing exits.
Referencing the Twitter video with the oh my god screamy guy from page 1, it was a good minute from the left over wing exits opening to him escaping through door 1L when the number 1 was spooling down. That is so dangerous.
Such a long time to have passengers on a wing and behind an idling engine with the exhaust blast and heat etc.
As the co-pilot was asking Tower if they saw anything, the slide was being blown.
To our US pilots/AA pilots, in AA, is there an early PA to passengers (within 5 seconds, say, of stopping) saying something like, 'Everything is fine, we're dealing with it, give us a sec', or is their SOP to deal with everything first in cockpit, talk to cabin crew, tower, etc and then deal with the passengers?
Not AA but US carrier. Our protocol for an abort is for the FO to go back after control txfer if need be and keep the pax seated, then to the FA's to assess and wait for the Captain's command. None of that precludes them from initiating an evac if it meet their criteria.
Thanks West Coast.
It's quite different to our SOP, European Legacy, so.
Do you/are you permitted to go further rearward than the forward galley? I'd be thinking you'd get blocked by pax if the captain ordered an evac after speaking with you and the FA's or the situation degraded while you were in the cabin.
Interesting, all the same.
Also, what is your airline's thinking, having you step out into the cabin to get info that way? Do they feel the inter-phone introduces too much of a chance for confusion?
Cheers.
It's quite different to our SOP, European Legacy, so.
Do you/are you permitted to go further rearward than the forward galley? I'd be thinking you'd get blocked by pax if the captain ordered an evac after speaking with you and the FA's or the situation degraded while you were in the cabin.
Interesting, all the same.
Also, what is your airline's thinking, having you step out into the cabin to get info that way? Do they feel the inter-phone introduces too much of a chance for confusion?
Cheers.
Sprite
It's not addressed in our documents, assuming you mean as a part of an evaluation to determine whether an evac is warranted. As is, we rely on the FA's evaluation if it isn't such as being in pieces.
Communication is completed via interphone as long as it's operable.
It's not addressed in our documents, assuming you mean as a part of an evaluation to determine whether an evac is warranted. As is, we rely on the FA's evaluation if it isn't such as being in pieces.
Communication is completed via interphone as long as it's operable.
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A second video shows the forward and rear doors opening, slides deploying, and first passengers down the forward slide.
https://twitter.com/Donnahdanoosh/st...91608451690496
Unfortunately, the Donnahdanoosh video doesn't appear to overlap the first FlightAlerts777 video (shows a/c stopping and over-wing slide deployment)
https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts777/...94272431185920
Added:
A third video shows what appears to be the first person down the rear door slide.
https://twitter.com/met_valpo/status/792100786364899329
https://twitter.com/Donnahdanoosh/st...91608451690496
Unfortunately, the Donnahdanoosh video doesn't appear to overlap the first FlightAlerts777 video (shows a/c stopping and over-wing slide deployment)
https://twitter.com/FlightAlerts777/...94272431185920
Added:
A third video shows what appears to be the first person down the rear door slide.
https://twitter.com/met_valpo/status/792100786364899329
Last edited by surfman96; 31st Oct 2016 at 23:29.
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In the cockpit, you have two guys trying to assess, communicate with the cabin, make a decision that almost inevitably results in some kind of injury, and execute a 10 to 12 step checklist in an orderly manner...
In the cabin, you have 7 FA's and a boatload of pax awaiting a decision when it is painfully obvious to all what the answer is...this kind of intense pressure bears totally on the cabin crew. Given the obvious next move, obvious even to your average low-information passenger...you know, with the right wing fully engulfed in flames...how long should they wait?
There is no right answer. Bottom line is everybody got out. It wasn't necessarily as pretty as we might wish, but it worked. Now we need to think about how we get the cockpit SA and the cabin SA into alignment a helluva lot quicker.
One way is through continual monitoring of the cabin interphone with an SOP that says the cabin can simply pickup the phone and start talking...without all the chimes and secret signals...thus aligning the cockpit SA more quickly to what is going on in the cabin.
I will simply note that such was the SOP at this particular cockpit crew's previous employer...but that is not the SOP at the current employer...
In the cabin, you have 7 FA's and a boatload of pax awaiting a decision when it is painfully obvious to all what the answer is...this kind of intense pressure bears totally on the cabin crew. Given the obvious next move, obvious even to your average low-information passenger...you know, with the right wing fully engulfed in flames...how long should they wait?
There is no right answer. Bottom line is everybody got out. It wasn't necessarily as pretty as we might wish, but it worked. Now we need to think about how we get the cockpit SA and the cabin SA into alignment a helluva lot quicker.
One way is through continual monitoring of the cabin interphone with an SOP that says the cabin can simply pickup the phone and start talking...without all the chimes and secret signals...thus aligning the cockpit SA more quickly to what is going on in the cabin.
I will simply note that such was the SOP at this particular cockpit crew's previous employer...but that is not the SOP at the current employer...