LCY closed due to "chemical incident"
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
What is the opinion of PPRuNe surfers of a personal cs spray discarded in a trash can causing 26 people to need treatment. Seems odd to me.
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I am having a hard time understanding this incident.
1) Someone had some CS spray on their person.
2) I presume that bringing that on board an aircraft is a no-no.
3) Can gets discarded.
4) How did that cause a hazard to other people? Did it rupture?
1) Someone had some CS spray on their person.
2) I presume that bringing that on board an aircraft is a no-no.
3) Can gets discarded.
4) How did that cause a hazard to other people? Did it rupture?
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Is it common for civilians to be running around with CS spray (tear gas) on their person in the UK? Carrying OC spray (pepper spray) is extremely common here, but not even police would be carrying CS unless heading to a riot situation. OC seems to be the tool of choice for routine police work. Unlike OC, CS usually comes in a rather large canister that I would think would be inconvenient to conceal.
I've never had the "pleasure" of being subjected to CS, but I've had plenty of dealings with OC in an enclosed space and it can linger for a surprising amount of time. I can see how a canister of OC could be discarded, then heavier items get placed in the bin which causes the discharge spray button to get pressed. A fogger-type spray would create plenty of dispersal even from the bin. The physical symptoms are not exactly pleasant even walking into a room 15+ minutes after a spray. All it would take is a few easily excitable pax and it turns into mass hysteria. But again that's OC. Maybe CS is similar.
I've never had the "pleasure" of being subjected to CS, but I've had plenty of dealings with OC in an enclosed space and it can linger for a surprising amount of time. I can see how a canister of OC could be discarded, then heavier items get placed in the bin which causes the discharge spray button to get pressed. A fogger-type spray would create plenty of dispersal even from the bin. The physical symptoms are not exactly pleasant even walking into a room 15+ minutes after a spray. All it would take is a few easily excitable pax and it turns into mass hysteria. But again that's OC. Maybe CS is similar.
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T28B,
I have no real knowledge of what happened, but I believe your suppositions are right in the first three statements. As for your question in item 4, I can only postulate that if it was an "innocent" event, someone felt it would be safer to discharge it (probably into the bin) before dumping the canister into the bin. My wife would do such lunacy, and that would not be the craziest thing I've seen her do. Before you ask, neither she nor I have ever been to LCY.
If it's not so innocent, I guess it could have been worse.
I have no real knowledge of what happened, but I believe your suppositions are right in the first three statements. As for your question in item 4, I can only postulate that if it was an "innocent" event, someone felt it would be safer to discharge it (probably into the bin) before dumping the canister into the bin. My wife would do such lunacy, and that would not be the craziest thing I've seen her do. Before you ask, neither she nor I have ever been to LCY.
If it's not so innocent, I guess it could have been worse.
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From what I recall from crew briefings during the Vietnam war, we had three kinds of chemical irritant for use in rescuing downed crew in enemy territory: DL, CN, and CS. DL was conventional tear gas, CN was a 'nausea' agent, and CS was 'not used because it was too dangerous to the downed crewman'.
Which is why the idea of a 'personal CS spray' cannister makes me go "huh?"
Which is why the idea of a 'personal CS spray' cannister makes me go "huh?"
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Conventional tear gas is CS, which replaced CN. DM was the nausea agent. CS is more potent than CN but was found to be less toxic in the long run.
Pepper spray (OC) may actually be even more potent than CS, depending on the concentration.
CS spray is a highly diluted form of CS (dissolved in liquid). In the US, CS spray is typically just 1% CS. UK police uses 5% CS.
Mace, the popular personal protection brand, was originally based on 1% CN. Now it is mostly pepper spray (up to 10% OC), but the company still makes products with CN.
Pepper spray (OC) may actually be even more potent than CS, depending on the concentration.
CS spray is a highly diluted form of CS (dissolved in liquid). In the US, CS spray is typically just 1% CS. UK police uses 5% CS.
Mace, the popular personal protection brand, was originally based on 1% CN. Now it is mostly pepper spray (up to 10% OC), but the company still makes products with CN.
Is it common for civilians to be running around with CS spray (tear gas) on their person in the UK? Carrying OC spray (pepper spray) is extremely common here, but not even police would be carrying CS unless heading to a riot situation. OC seems to be the tool of choice for routine police work. Unlike OC, CS usually comes in a rather large canister that I would think would be inconvenient to conceal.
I've never had the "pleasure" of being subjected to CS, but I've had plenty of dealings with OC in an enclosed space and it can linger for a surprising amount of time. I can see how a canister of OC could be discarded, then heavier items get placed in the bin which causes the discharge spray button to get pressed. A fogger-type spray would create plenty of dispersal even from the bin. The physical symptoms are not exactly pleasant even walking into a room 15+ minutes after a spray. All it would take is a few easily excitable pax and it turns into mass hysteria. But again that's OC. Maybe CS is similar.
I've never had the "pleasure" of being subjected to CS, but I've had plenty of dealings with OC in an enclosed space and it can linger for a surprising amount of time. I can see how a canister of OC could be discarded, then heavier items get placed in the bin which causes the discharge spray button to get pressed. A fogger-type spray would create plenty of dispersal even from the bin. The physical symptoms are not exactly pleasant even walking into a room 15+ minutes after a spray. All it would take is a few easily excitable pax and it turns into mass hysteria. But again that's OC. Maybe CS is similar.
Here in France you can buy pepper sprays and they are graded as a Cat D weapon. Possesion of over 100ml is liable to get you a fine, but if you are stopped for a minor offence, less than that would normally attract a verbal warning and confiscation.
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Well, I've had deliberate exposure to CS- in a gas chamber- and it's very not nice!
It can and does induce panic in people who are briefed and expecting to be exposed to it. I guess the effects would be magnified if you didn't know what it was.
On the subject of standing under the wing. I once was starting up at LCY, funnily enough. When we'd got a few started, the start crew told us to shut down. It was a fuel leak from the wing, and as it was a Avro RJ-100, when the engineer got on his steps to fix the leaking MFLI- with his rubber hammer, he did so in full view of the pax on that side.
He gave it a few gentle taps- which didn't work. He then gave it a big prod, which resulted in a couple of gallons of Jet A-1 landing on him! However, this stopped the leak. So he wandered off happily for a clean up. I guess he wasn't going for a fag......
Shortly after this, I found myself explaining the situation to a concerned lady passenger. She wanted off. I said she was free to go. (didn't blame her really). She then said she wanted off, and she wanted her money back.
I explained the aircraft was going to Glasgow now, as she wished it to do when she bought her ticket- so either hop off or stay on, but choose quickly please, so the rest of us can go. She got off..
It can and does induce panic in people who are briefed and expecting to be exposed to it. I guess the effects would be magnified if you didn't know what it was.
On the subject of standing under the wing. I once was starting up at LCY, funnily enough. When we'd got a few started, the start crew told us to shut down. It was a fuel leak from the wing, and as it was a Avro RJ-100, when the engineer got on his steps to fix the leaking MFLI- with his rubber hammer, he did so in full view of the pax on that side.
He gave it a few gentle taps- which didn't work. He then gave it a big prod, which resulted in a couple of gallons of Jet A-1 landing on him! However, this stopped the leak. So he wandered off happily for a clean up. I guess he wasn't going for a fag......
Shortly after this, I found myself explaining the situation to a concerned lady passenger. She wanted off. I said she was free to go. (didn't blame her really). She then said she wanted off, and she wanted her money back.
I explained the aircraft was going to Glasgow now, as she wished it to do when she bought her ticket- so either hop off or stay on, but choose quickly please, so the rest of us can go. She got off..
Don't stand under a wing?
During refueling yes perhaps I'd agree.
Other times not a problem.
In 30 years I've only once had fuel running out of a wing, that was during refueling on a 744 when the outboard tank shutoff failed and it over filled.......
That was the only time, I think the risk is very very low on a modern Aircraft.
During refueling yes perhaps I'd agree.
Other times not a problem.
In 30 years I've only once had fuel running out of a wing, that was during refueling on a 744 when the outboard tank shutoff failed and it over filled.......
That was the only time, I think the risk is very very low on a modern Aircraft.
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Sounds like a dry run to me.
As for CS it was a point NOT to run for the door when some masked up sadist set to work in the chamber,
If you ignore the nasal, eye irritation (because it isn't going away) and dont rub anything you can withstand a lot of the stuff, I know of one sadist who was shall we say was surprised to be offered out by not one, not two but three of No1 SofTT graduate misfits who all had their masks off and had had enough if his little games.....
As for CS it was a point NOT to run for the door when some masked up sadist set to work in the chamber,
If you ignore the nasal, eye irritation (because it isn't going away) and dont rub anything you can withstand a lot of the stuff, I know of one sadist who was shall we say was surprised to be offered out by not one, not two but three of No1 SofTT graduate misfits who all had their masks off and had had enough if his little games.....
Meanwhile back at the incident ...
What news from the police at my local airport ? They certainly spend enough time in the LCY terminal parading their Uzi machine guns in front of everyone at the top of the escalator and trying to look tough. Here we appear to have someone with a substance which is illegal to possess in the first place, who has then discharged it and led to people ending up in hospital, quite apart from the gross disruption to the services. The police appear to know, by stating it was a passenger, who it was. So what charges have been made ?
What news from the police at my local airport ? They certainly spend enough time in the LCY terminal parading their Uzi machine guns in front of everyone at the top of the escalator and trying to look tough. Here we appear to have someone with a substance which is illegal to possess in the first place, who has then discharged it and led to people ending up in hospital, quite apart from the gross disruption to the services. The police appear to know, by stating it was a passenger, who it was. So what charges have been made ?
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ACMS
Standing under a wing. Can agree with you re fuel but I once saw a ground crew standing under a Vulcan on start up - a standard procedure. Started first engine and the main gear only retracted!! No one killed but the a/c was written off.
Standing under a wing. Can agree with you re fuel but I once saw a ground crew standing under a Vulcan on start up - a standard procedure. Started first engine and the main gear only retracted!! No one killed but the a/c was written off.
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Hi, I was actually one of the passengers stuck on the ramp for 3 hours during this. It was raining for about 1 minute so I don't really think many people stood under the wings. The funniest part of the whole episode was when one person asked to buy a bottle of water from the airside vending machines outside the terminal, only to be told the vending machines were also unsafe due to the incident going on, despite the fact that 2 police officers and 3 people in high viz jackets were stood within 5 feet of those same unsafe vending machines.. the term complete farce was what I would use when the segregation of departing and arriving passengers went wrong and they had no idea who was who on the ramp!!
A 25yo man has been arrested, then bailed, over the incident.
Arrest over chemical alert at London City Airport - BBC News
Arrest over chemical alert at London City Airport - BBC News
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A lot of playing down of this incident and the one at North Greenwich, which was an IED found given to a tube driver. I am curious to know what the outcomes of these investigations will be, dry run maybe?
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Yep, dry runs with smaller, viable devices. The chemical and container are not as reported.
A lot of the time 'chemical spills' or 'incidents' are practice dry runs. It's a constant game of cat and mouse, most of the time, the cat catches the mouse, but sometimes they slip through and that's where attacks happen. It's terrifying how often these incidents happen with the public completely oblivious.
Source: family member in the CBRN.
I cannot, for obvious reasons, say any more than that.
A lot of the time 'chemical spills' or 'incidents' are practice dry runs. It's a constant game of cat and mouse, most of the time, the cat catches the mouse, but sometimes they slip through and that's where attacks happen. It's terrifying how often these incidents happen with the public completely oblivious.
Source: family member in the CBRN.
I cannot, for obvious reasons, say any more than that.
