LH E195 took off without clearance at BRU
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Gran Bretaņa
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
They've got it at CDG. Particularly useful because of the two sets of parallel runways, so there's constantly landing traffic crossing over the takeoff runways. (They tend to land on the outer runways and take off from the inners)
Join Date: May 2003
Location: KGRB, but on the road about 1/2 the time.
Age: 61
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hence, when I'm PNF and reaching the end of the take-off checks, I normally say something along the lines of "Take-Off checks complete, we are not cleared to take-off yet" or words to that effect. Just to be sure that the PF is on the same page as me and doesn't slam the throttles forward as we finish the line-up. Does anyone else do this?
de minimus non curat lex
Speaking from bitter experience a number of years ago, as the ac commander,
I think putting the landing lights ON ( bar forward ) as the best way to mitigate this threat.
Best visual cue you have.......keeping it simple stupid 😎
I think putting the landing lights ON ( bar forward ) as the best way to mitigate this threat.
Best visual cue you have.......keeping it simple stupid 😎
Quote:
Originally Posted by FZRA View Post
Hence, when I'm PNF and reaching the end of the take-off checks, I normally say something along the lines of "Take-Off checks complete, we are not cleared to take-off yet" or words to that effect. Just to be sure that the PF is on the same page as me and doesn't slam the throttles forward as we finish the line-up. Does anyone else do this?
.......I would say, in the cockpit, "Take Off Checklist complete. Lineup and wait."...for the same safety reason you specified.
Originally Posted by FZRA View Post
Hence, when I'm PNF and reaching the end of the take-off checks, I normally say something along the lines of "Take-Off checks complete, we are not cleared to take-off yet" or words to that effect. Just to be sure that the PF is on the same page as me and doesn't slam the throttles forward as we finish the line-up. Does anyone else do this?
.......I would say, in the cockpit, "Take Off Checklist complete. Lineup and wait."...for the same safety reason you specified.
(When seating the cabin crew, I never say "take-off" either; I say "Cabin crew, seats for departure please."
I avoid saying the phrase "take-off" until we are actually cleared by ATC to do so.
Last edited by Uplinker; 21st Jul 2017 at 07:16. Reason: @council van, sorry you already said this.
Just an observation to stir further debate. For at least one current type Boeing makes the following comment in it's normal checklist handling instructions:
There is a " before take off checklist".
For all checklists, the PM announces “___ CHECKLIST COMPLETE,” the PF visually confirms that the CHECKLIST COMPLETE indication is shown and.......
We used to have a before departure checklist but it is now a before take off checklist!
We ask for before takeoff checklist and the reply is before takeoff checklist complete....
We ask for before takeoff checklist and the reply is before takeoff checklist complete....
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mids
Age: 58
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have changed a couple of company checklists names to "line up checklist". Don't have an issue with departure checklist just as long as its anything but takeoff.
Must admit I can't even use "takeoff" in normal conversation with none pilots.
Must admit I can't even use "takeoff" in normal conversation with none pilots.
What waz ze callsign again? If it's Lufthansa - then it's Ze Lufthansa. If Ze Lufthansa management has chosen to wet lease an operator to fly on it's behalf - it's a Lufthansa flight. End of ze story.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Two points to note from the final report:
1/. Limited traffic information/situational awareness given when delivering ATC clearances.
2/. Authorizing aircraft to line up on RWY 07R at a short distance from the intersection with RWY 01 without correlation with landing traffic on this latter.
Speaking as a controller, this confirms what I saw immediately on reading about the incident. Lining up on any crossing runway - and from an intersection so close to the runway with landing traffic - without giving traffic for SA, is something I would not do. (I would not do that where I work with 3 crossing rwys.) Especially when one considers the non-native language elements etc. Of course this does not condone taking off without a clearance but "Rwy xx, line-up and wait - landing traffic rwy yy" must be a sensible use of phraseology.
1/. Limited traffic information/situational awareness given when delivering ATC clearances.
2/. Authorizing aircraft to line up on RWY 07R at a short distance from the intersection with RWY 01 without correlation with landing traffic on this latter.
Speaking as a controller, this confirms what I saw immediately on reading about the incident. Lining up on any crossing runway - and from an intersection so close to the runway with landing traffic - without giving traffic for SA, is something I would not do. (I would not do that where I work with 3 crossing rwys.) Especially when one considers the non-native language elements etc. Of course this does not condone taking off without a clearance but "Rwy xx, line-up and wait - landing traffic rwy yy" must be a sensible use of phraseology.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Belgium
Age: 33
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: France
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
(For discussion only - only criticism of the controller implied or intended.)
Why not just leave the departure at the holding point, given that rwy configuration? The report states that traffic levels were not high, so no need to be super expeditious. Wait till the landing a/c has passed - which you have to do anyway obviously - then clear the departure for take-off from the holding point. Saves you one transmission and limits any risk of exactly what happened.
Further thought: it seems that there are two holding points adjacent to the landing rwy - from memory, C5 & C6. Seems that the latter might be way too close for comfort to the landing runway. Is there any possibility - and/or mitigations in place - that the pilots of departing a/c might inadvertently go to the wrong one? (Don't have the report open so that is from memory....) Anyone familiar with the procedures?
Why not just leave the departure at the holding point, given that rwy configuration? The report states that traffic levels were not high, so no need to be super expeditious. Wait till the landing a/c has passed - which you have to do anyway obviously - then clear the departure for take-off from the holding point. Saves you one transmission and limits any risk of exactly what happened.
Further thought: it seems that there are two holding points adjacent to the landing rwy - from memory, C5 & C6. Seems that the latter might be way too close for comfort to the landing runway. Is there any possibility - and/or mitigations in place - that the pilots of departing a/c might inadvertently go to the wrong one? (Don't have the report open so that is from memory....) Anyone familiar with the procedures?
Only half a speed-brake
Lissart: If memory is correct 07R have a special noise abatement take-off point. It is about 400 m down the runway from the threshold. Thus it make sense to allow the aircraft to line up, taxi forward and wait, saving about one and half precious minute, whilst the crossing traffic lands.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Belgium
Age: 33
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C5 is not used for line-ups, only C6 is for intersection departures on 07R.
The stopbar for C6 is quite a ways away from the RWY, and the final part of the RWY entry is rather steeply uphill (relatively speaking). As such, line-up time is rather unpredictable, and lining up an aircraft only after the landing aircraft has passed leads to a very long time of nothing happening, and the next arrival only coming closer and closer.
Several runway holding positions are used (Hotel, 1 and 2, visible on charts in the AIP). Using runway configuration 01/07 results in a very busy environment for everybody involved, both on the flight deck and outside.
Mistakes happen, we're all human, key point is to learn from them, which seems to have happened.
The stopbar for C6 is quite a ways away from the RWY, and the final part of the RWY entry is rather steeply uphill (relatively speaking). As such, line-up time is rather unpredictable, and lining up an aircraft only after the landing aircraft has passed leads to a very long time of nothing happening, and the next arrival only coming closer and closer.
Several runway holding positions are used (Hotel, 1 and 2, visible on charts in the AIP). Using runway configuration 01/07 results in a very busy environment for everybody involved, both on the flight deck and outside.
Mistakes happen, we're all human, key point is to learn from them, which seems to have happened.
