Samsung Tablet / phone problems (Combined)
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Samsung Tablet / phone problems (Combined)
Plane crew douse smoking Samsung phone - BBC News
Seems like it could've ended badly. Well handled, but I guess it would get the adrenaline going at the time...
Seems like it could've ended badly. Well handled, but I guess it would get the adrenaline going at the time...
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Do crews receive training on how to handle a burning lithium battery as the metal can be very reactive and placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery. Also some metals can ripe the oxygen out of the water and keep burning. Just wonder if any research has been done on the best way to extinguish one.
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Lithium being an alkali metal can react with water to form hydrogen gas (which is explosive in air) as follows:
2 Li + 2 H2O -> 2 Li+ + 2 OH- + H2
However, apart from Li being the least reactive among the alkali metals, there is no metallic Li in rechargeable Li-Ion batteries (as opposed to non-rechargeable Li cells).
Immersion in water works well for Li-Ion battery fires simply because water quickly absorbs excess heat, i.e. cools down the battery such that any thermal runaway reaction can no longer proceed.
2 Li + 2 H2O -> 2 Li+ + 2 OH- + H2
However, apart from Li being the least reactive among the alkali metals, there is no metallic Li in rechargeable Li-Ion batteries (as opposed to non-rechargeable Li cells).
Immersion in water works well for Li-Ion battery fires simply because water quickly absorbs excess heat, i.e. cools down the battery such that any thermal runaway reaction can no longer proceed.
Last edited by olandese_volante; 25th Sep 2016 at 01:44. Reason: tweak
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Battery Fires
The correct information is contained in: ( Emergency Response Guidance for Aircraft Incidents Involving Dangerous Goods”ICAO Doc 9481 N/928).
EASA issued a SIB regarding the use of these checklists. The UK CAA subsequently issued a comprehensive set of checklists as well.
EASA issued a SIB regarding the use of these checklists. The UK CAA subsequently issued a comprehensive set of checklists as well.
Stop saying water douse is bad.
Originally Posted by horizon flyer
Do crews receive training on how to handle a burning lithium battery as the metal can be very reactive and placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery. Also some metals can ripe the oxygen out of the water and keep burning. Just wonder if any research has been done on the best way to extinguish one.
I asked him this question just a few days ago, and he was utterly unambiguous. According to both direct experimental test and physical understanding the best way to handle a smoldering lithium ion battery gadget is submerge it in water. The basic mechanism is cooling. There is no lithium in metallic form present in the battery. People citing their high school chemistry to claim danger from the use of water for this purpose are dead wrong.
None of this was any surprise to me but apparently the word still has not spread to some of those spreading their wisdom here.
Of course, neither he nor I are pilots, so mere knowledge of the subject may not count here.
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The procedure is written into the Part E manuals, and submersion in water is correct to most effectively reduce the temperature. Our Part E is quite emphatic about not using ice as it is far less effective and could in fact provide some level of thermal insulation.
My concern is more where they put it - the galley is an easier place to maintain observation of the item than the toilet, and the environment in the galley is less combustible than the toilet area.
My concern is more where they put it - the galley is an easier place to maintain observation of the item than the toilet, and the environment in the galley is less combustible than the toilet area.
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Our flight attendants are trained for this annually, since it has become a bigger issue. Any fluid will help really. Coke, Sprite, water, gin, you name it. Pleeease not the gin tho. 
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At the start of a flight yesterday, the cabin crew made specific reference to the Samsung device battery issue, concerning it's use in the cabin, not charging it on board and alerting staff if any such device was in hold baggage.
Never heard that before, but was very pleased to hear them covering this in the saftey brief nontheless.
Never heard that before, but was very pleased to hear them covering this in the saftey brief nontheless.
What, I wonder, would have happened in response to a passenger advising that they had a phone on their hold baggage ?
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Well, I was once summoned by our cabin crew to speak to a lady who insisted on talking to the captain.
'I've left my mobile phone in my hold baggage, and it's switched on', she honestly stated.
'I've left my mobile phone in my hold baggage, and it's switched on', she honestly stated.
Well worth watching:
One never ceases to be amazed at what we can 'learn' on these fora:
@horizon flyer
How exactly does that work then? There is no metallic lithium in the battery!
How exactly does that work then? A 'short circuit' is a zero Ohm load on the battery - water cannot possibly do that!
How exactly does this work then? The only thing 'ripe' in all this nonsense appears to be your imagination!
Why make up this nonsense? Why present your misunderstandings and false theories as facts? I'd keep them to yourself if you don't want others to 'ripe' the p1$$.!
@horizon flyer
how to handle a burning lithium battery as the metal can be very reactive
placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery.
Also some metals can ripe the oxygen out of the water and keep burning.
Why make up this nonsense? Why present your misunderstandings and false theories as facts? I'd keep them to yourself if you don't want others to 'ripe' the p1$$.!
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At the start of a flight yesterday, the cabin crew made specific reference to the Samsung device battery issue, concerning it's use in the cabin, not charging it on board and alerting staff if any such device was in hold baggage.
Never heard that before, but was very pleased to hear them covering this in the saftey brief nontheless.
Never heard that before, but was very pleased to hear them covering this in the saftey brief nontheless.
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Indeed! Like this gem:
Take a wire and 'short out' a battery until the wire melts. I think you'd agree this is a 'short circuit' by any reasonable person's definition. The resistance can NOT be zero ohms, otherwise the wire would not heat up. Think about it.
Take a wire and 'short out' a battery until the wire melts. I think you'd agree this is a 'short circuit' by any reasonable person's definition. The resistance can NOT be zero ohms, otherwise the wire would not heat up. Think about it.
OK, just for you, core dump.
horizon flyer was trying to teach us that "placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery." That is utter nonsense.
Your efforts to liken water's effect on a battery (many hundreds or thousands of Ohms, and negligible Wattage) to a wire ( a few tenths of an Ohm, and many Watts) is as flawed as horizon's thinking. Water across the terminals of a battery behaves nothing like being shorted with a wire whatsoever.
Your further quibble about whether a wire is effectively zero Ohms is a totally bogus argument which detracts from the very important issue of how to deal with such a dangerous situation in flight.
Putting a smouldering runaway Li Ion battery in water is EXACTLY the right move, for the very reasons given by numerous more knowledgeable contrinutors than either horizon or yourself.
horizon flyer was trying to teach us that "placing it water may not be the best idea it shorts the battery." That is utter nonsense.
Your efforts to liken water's effect on a battery (many hundreds or thousands of Ohms, and negligible Wattage) to a wire ( a few tenths of an Ohm, and many Watts) is as flawed as horizon's thinking. Water across the terminals of a battery behaves nothing like being shorted with a wire whatsoever.
Your further quibble about whether a wire is effectively zero Ohms is a totally bogus argument which detracts from the very important issue of how to deal with such a dangerous situation in flight.
Putting a smouldering runaway Li Ion battery in water is EXACTLY the right move, for the very reasons given by numerous more knowledgeable contrinutors than either horizon or yourself.
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But since you brought it up: The resistance of water depends on the distance between the battery terminals and the amount of contaminants in the water. Since both are variable, it would be improper to say that water always has a resistance of "hundreds or thousands of ohms" when surrounding any given battery. Short terminal spacing and salty water (margarita? who knows) would result in far less resistance than you think. But still I never claimed it was a bad idea to dump a li ion battery in water.
A little off-topic, but interesting tidbit: On every one I've tested, the little light on the Mae West doesn't activate in fresh water. Only saltwater.
Heard a briefing last week where we were told 'please tell a member of the cabin crew if you have a Samsung 7 in your hold luggage so we can delay the flight'.
Unlikely to get the desired result, I suggest.....
Unlikely to get the desired result, I suggest.....