What about TK1815 ?
Incident: THY B738 at Nice on Aug 27th 2016, went through extended centerline and descended below safe height
A low pass to give the port-side pax a good view of the sea-front and the bay?
Must have been, um, interesting for those on the ground as well. 550 ft amsl is a bit close in those parts.
A low pass to give the port-side pax a good view of the sea-front and the bay?
Must have been, um, interesting for those on the ground as well. 550 ft amsl is a bit close in those parts.
Crews are sternly warned against overflying any kind of land when approaching NCE on one of the normally used circling approaches there. Also, the French are quick to fine those who do not adhere to their rules. I have heard of someone who received a nasty letter for just daring to request an ILS instead of the VOR A approach...
The weather seems rather standard for NCE, not too exciting and definitely not prone to cause such a massive drift away from the centerline. Also, if one just tracks the Promenade des Anglais while staying a bit out at sea, one will not only be legal, but also end up very nicely lined up with 22R.
Has the flight crew been to NCE and/or flown a 22 approach before?
The weather seems rather standard for NCE, not too exciting and definitely not prone to cause such a massive drift away from the centerline. Also, if one just tracks the Promenade des Anglais while staying a bit out at sea, one will not only be legal, but also end up very nicely lined up with 22R.
Has the flight crew been to NCE and/or flown a 22 approach before?
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I know the place ,flying often VFR around there. 550 ft amsl over land in this part of the city is interesting , it is far from flat ground, fortunately most home television antennas are gone nowadays, so rooftops are clear, but there are a few GSM telephone antennas much higher around (one at 800ft) and even a main VFR inbound route ( via WN) which he happily crossed , but we are at 1500ft there , would be nice to see a 737 passing below between you and the buildings on the hills 
Yikes, if those altitudes are accurate they must only have been a few hundred feet AGL when they went round, very scary. I wonder if an EGPWS terrain floor warning is what finally bought the approach to an end.
Surely, a look out of the window to find buildings where one expected a runway to land on is enough of a trigger to reconsider?
Is this enough of a serious incident to have it investigated by the French Authority?
Is this enough of a serious incident to have it investigated by the French Authority?
Well I would have thought so to but considering how far they got the horrendous view out the window clearly wasn't enough, they had both probably lost the plot several miles before. Perhaps a nice loud pull up warning bought them back to reality, just as well something did.
The approaches to runway 22 are VORs ending in a "circling with prescribed tracks". You are basically guided to a point just outside of Cap Ferrat at 1500ft, 5.5 NM from the field and offset by 45° from the runway track, but with the runway dead ahead and in plain sight. The prescribed track involves a descent to 1000ft while flying along the coast line, keeping strictly over the sea. This leads onto a approximately 2.5NM short final with a PAPI angle of 3.5°. So not nearly "do it Yourself"; the adherence to these tracks is rather closely monitored. An ATC transcript of this flight will most likely contain an inquiry from Tower about the flights navigational accuracy.
In the airport briefing, one is warned against overflying Cap Ferrat, Villefranche-sur-Mer and the city of Nice. Also, the VOR approaches to 04 L/R contain a warning against flying west of a defined radial; basically, it is required to stay over water at all times and not cross any coast line during those approaches.
The charts are available from the French AIP LFMN page:
Circling 22
VOR B 22
In the airport briefing, one is warned against overflying Cap Ferrat, Villefranche-sur-Mer and the city of Nice. Also, the VOR approaches to 04 L/R contain a warning against flying west of a defined radial; basically, it is required to stay over water at all times and not cross any coast line during those approaches.
The charts are available from the French AIP LFMN page:
Circling 22
VOR B 22
Last edited by Tu.114; 31st Aug 2016 at 06:55. Reason: It is a 3.5° PAPI, not 2.5°.
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Capt Blogs :
no published visual STAR as I can see on my doc . just a VAC .
the text of the IAC is there :
no published visual STAR as I can see on my doc . just a VAC .
the text of the IAC is there :
RWY 22R, 2570 meters, is dedicated to landings.
On RWY 22, the preferential approach is the VOR B approach followed by VPT B RWY 22R.
The conventional approach will be the VOR C RWY 22R approach fol¬lowed by the VPT C RWY22R, if VOR/DME AZR is U/S.
Due to obstacles, these approaches have high minimas, 8 km and 1500 ft (VOR B and C).
Under adverse weather conditions (visibility BLW 8 km, ceiling BLW 1500 ft), RNAV D (GNSS) RWY 22 procedure will be in use. Without required RNAV capability, holding or diversion is to be expected.
To carry out these RWY 22 procedures aircrews should:
- check speed and aircraft set-up BEFORE the visual phase of the approach,
- strictly maintain published altitudes (vertical cut-away view) (see IAC) because of the presence of VFR helicopter traffic flying at 500 ft MAX under the procedure,
- be aware of marked high obstacles on the right of base leg,
- note the very short final descent at 3.5 degrees.
At night, if these marked obstacles are not visible, these procedures will not be carried out. During strong Westerly winds there may be high turbulenceon short final that could result in missed approaches; in this case the traffic may be carried exceptionnally on RWY 22L.
Circling to land wil not normaly be designated by NICE ATC to be used for landing on RWY 22L or 22R. Notably, the mere absence of operating conditions for VPT 22 procedures has not to be considered like an exceptional situation and does not constitute a reason for using circling to land RWY 22 procedure except on limited basis.
The 3,5° degree 22L and 22R PAPI, respectively located left of threshold 22L and 22R, are calibrated for threshold overflight of type B747 planes, 22L and 22R PAPI offset 05° to the South.
Scope limited to 7000 m.
On RWY 22, the preferential approach is the VOR B approach followed by VPT B RWY 22R.
The conventional approach will be the VOR C RWY 22R approach fol¬lowed by the VPT C RWY22R, if VOR/DME AZR is U/S.
Due to obstacles, these approaches have high minimas, 8 km and 1500 ft (VOR B and C).
Under adverse weather conditions (visibility BLW 8 km, ceiling BLW 1500 ft), RNAV D (GNSS) RWY 22 procedure will be in use. Without required RNAV capability, holding or diversion is to be expected.
To carry out these RWY 22 procedures aircrews should:
- check speed and aircraft set-up BEFORE the visual phase of the approach,
- strictly maintain published altitudes (vertical cut-away view) (see IAC) because of the presence of VFR helicopter traffic flying at 500 ft MAX under the procedure,
- be aware of marked high obstacles on the right of base leg,
- note the very short final descent at 3.5 degrees.
At night, if these marked obstacles are not visible, these procedures will not be carried out. During strong Westerly winds there may be high turbulenceon short final that could result in missed approaches; in this case the traffic may be carried exceptionnally on RWY 22L.
Circling to land wil not normaly be designated by NICE ATC to be used for landing on RWY 22L or 22R. Notably, the mere absence of operating conditions for VPT 22 procedures has not to be considered like an exceptional situation and does not constitute a reason for using circling to land RWY 22 procedure except on limited basis.
The 3,5° degree 22L and 22R PAPI, respectively located left of threshold 22L and 22R, are calibrated for threshold overflight of type B747 planes, 22L and 22R PAPI offset 05° to the South.
Scope limited to 7000 m.
Thanks. An interesting VOR... 45° off at only 5nm from the runway in 8km vis. That has potential for a stuffup. The FMA-meisters would have a field day with that one! My initial response would be that a visual circle from the south west would be the best, but I guess departing traffic would conflict. Do not reinvent the wheel, Bloggs...
Originally Posted by Bloggs
Is there a published Visual STAR for that approach or is it "Do It Yourself"?
After the 5.5 point, it's visual prescribed tracks. You must follow those tracks, for various reasons.
It's not hard, and getting to where they did is astonishing.
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TWR ?
It would be interesting to read the conversation from the Tower to the pilots as the plane did not start the turn to final, and some second later continued over the Promenade des Anglais and the City !
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Nice is not difficult during good weather but one needs to be attentive,procedures are for noise and a little more complex than other airports.
From the graph above it seems the first approach was way off the track they should have maintained,possibly going visual way too early.
From the graph above it seems the first approach was way off the track they should have maintained,possibly going visual way too early.