Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?
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No t if you believe recent posts
So which inside story to believe?
What I dont believe is that a light T7 couldn't power through the problem if the throttles were firewalled. Which makes me thing there is more to this story....
One engine might struggle with the temp and pressure at dxb. Two has no trouble taking off at MTOW. I just don't get the struggle to get +ROC. Even if wheels up was a bit premature.
One more thing. A firefighter died, which is sad. But how was he that close? In this day and age you squirt foam from a safe distance inside a cabin. His death is as confusing as the crash. No disrespect intended, clearly he was putting his life on the line to save others. Credit where it is due.
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Who knows?
Early rumours talked about a bounce. Later rumours talk about a ga at 30-40ft during flare. Neither may be true. It's a rumour network....
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Something that's been bothering me as I've watched this thread develop, ever since I first learned (or relearned, I think I knew it once) that TOGA is inhibited by the squat switches..
If TOGA is commanded in this situation, is there any aural or visual warning?
One of the basic precepts of user interface design is that if an action is commanded and it can't happen, the user should be made aware.
I know that the cockpit is a busy place during a go-around, and that pilots are fully committed in managing the situation, but it's not such an abnormal occurance that an additional klaxon or bell would be sensory overload, and surely you'd rather know in time to push the throttles forward? Accidental commanding of TOGA in a non-safety critical situation - in the cruise or taxying to the gate - seems vanishingly unlikely to occur and if it does and there's an alert, no harm done. Presumably that's why there's a suppression circuit in there anyway.
(It's also not a complex addition: I know this is the thing that every armchair expert says, but in this case if there's anything less complicated than checking if the TOGA system is suppressed when the button's pushed, I'm hard pushed to guess what it might be)
If TOGA is commanded in this situation, is there any aural or visual warning?
One of the basic precepts of user interface design is that if an action is commanded and it can't happen, the user should be made aware.
I know that the cockpit is a busy place during a go-around, and that pilots are fully committed in managing the situation, but it's not such an abnormal occurance that an additional klaxon or bell would be sensory overload, and surely you'd rather know in time to push the throttles forward? Accidental commanding of TOGA in a non-safety critical situation - in the cruise or taxying to the gate - seems vanishingly unlikely to occur and if it does and there's an alert, no harm done. Presumably that's why there's a suppression circuit in there anyway.
(It's also not a complex addition: I know this is the thing that every armchair expert says, but in this case if there's anything less complicated than checking if the TOGA system is suppressed when the button's pushed, I'm hard pushed to guess what it might be)
Still no information as to
1. "Why the GA was initiated in the first place".
2. And "Why Positive Rate was called out".
1. "Why the GA was initiated in the first place".
2. And "Why Positive Rate was called out".
1. Aircraft not in the right place and/or at the correct speed to execute a normal landing?
2. Because the aircraft was climbing away from the ground, albeit not for very long?
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That there....is what's bothering me !
The thing is/has always been "Sustained Positive Rate"....
.....and that is something other than "albeit not for very long".
It's like the "she's a little bit pregnant" statement !
She is. Or she aint.
And I suspect, in this instance..... she ain't !
It may or may not be relevant to this accident but the discussion around the positive rate call may give some people pause for thought. I’ve never understood the need to try and get the gear up right at the moment the wheels are leaving the tarmac - it can only end in tears...
Only half a speed-brake
It is relevant for single engine performance. Which, albeit from a surprising angle, brings us to back to the point that all-engines operative go-arounds are different kettle of fish than the OEI SIM drill.
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OAKAPE AT 783 said
Therein seems to be a problem. Positive RATE and Positive CLIMB are NOT the same except for a very brief instant when starting the process ( pull back yoke or stick ).
Consider this hypothectical say at 10k feet/
A- Thrust is constant
B- Pilot rapidly pulls back yoke and holds it for several seconds
C- reaction of plane goes
1) start to climb- positive change in altitude = positive climb
2) Rate of climb starts as positive since prior rate of climb was zero at cruise level flight
3) in a short period ( seconds ? ) climb is still positive- plane goes UP
4) BUT absent anything else changing- ( holding yoke back ) the RATE of climb will decrease, and since NO energy( thrust) has been added, eventuually, the plane will lose speed and start stall.
Now at 10 K feet - it may take several seconds to reach stall, since speeds are higher, and more energy needs to be lost re climb to reach stall conditions- and there is usually time and altitude to recover.
BUT at low altitude ( re landing ) the times and allowable altitude loss after climb RATE GOES TO ZERO OR NEGATIVE IS VERY SHORT. EG the plane can still be climbing but at a slower and slower RATE
Thus the difference between positive Climb and Positive RATE ( change per unit time )becomes more than a matter of description
" ...1. PF calls "Going around - Flap 20 (B777)", hits TOGA & ensures that the thrust levers go forward - way forward, while pitching to the target pitch attitude or ensuring that the A/P is responding correctly
2. PNF selects the flap, verifies & calls "Positive climb(or rate)" ...
2. PNF selects the flap, verifies & calls "Positive climb(or rate)" ...
Consider this hypothectical say at 10k feet/
A- Thrust is constant
B- Pilot rapidly pulls back yoke and holds it for several seconds
C- reaction of plane goes
1) start to climb- positive change in altitude = positive climb
2) Rate of climb starts as positive since prior rate of climb was zero at cruise level flight
3) in a short period ( seconds ? ) climb is still positive- plane goes UP
4) BUT absent anything else changing- ( holding yoke back ) the RATE of climb will decrease, and since NO energy( thrust) has been added, eventuually, the plane will lose speed and start stall.
Now at 10 K feet - it may take several seconds to reach stall, since speeds are higher, and more energy needs to be lost re climb to reach stall conditions- and there is usually time and altitude to recover.
BUT at low altitude ( re landing ) the times and allowable altitude loss after climb RATE GOES TO ZERO OR NEGATIVE IS VERY SHORT. EG the plane can still be climbing but at a slower and slower RATE
Thus the difference between positive Climb and Positive RATE ( change per unit time )becomes more than a matter of description
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Just a couple of points.....
Call "check power" and VERIFY Go Around thrust is set.
At a POSITIVE RATE OF CLIMB call "positive rate of climb, gear up........."
Hence.....
Go-Around after Touchdown
If a go-around is initiated before touchdown and touchdown occurs, continue with normal go-around procedures. The F/D
go-around mode will continue to provide go-around guidance commands throughout the maneuver.
Thus.....
You have thrust, as you have verified it
You have Positive Rate, as you have verified it.
And off you go.
Call "check power" and VERIFY Go Around thrust is set.
At a POSITIVE RATE OF CLIMB call "positive rate of climb, gear up........."
Hence.....
Go-Around after Touchdown
If a go-around is initiated before touchdown and touchdown occurs, continue with normal go-around procedures. The F/D
go-around mode will continue to provide go-around guidance commands throughout the maneuver.
Thus.....
You have thrust, as you have verified it
You have Positive Rate, as you have verified it.
And off you go.
No-one is venturing a solid and valid answer as to what happens to the ATs if TOGA is selected after a Touchdown or bounce.
Anyone have some material form the AOM we can share?
Anyone have some material form the AOM we can share?
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I remember a few years ago in an A320 sim, I was debriefed on putting the landing gear up on a single engine go around. I was PNF (FO)
GA Executed, Toga applied, however being slow to attain the proper pitch attitude we did not have a positive rate of climb. I was scanning the VSI and one point we actually were hovering around zero/descending a bit. Nothing against the handling pilot though we're all a bit rusty when we jump back in first day after 6 months
Once the proper attitude was attained, we started to climb and I called positive climb, and we retracted the gear etc.
I was asked "why did you delay the positive climb call" and I said because we didn't have a positive rate of climb. The checkie said yeah ok but single engine its inhibiting the performance so the gear needs to come up.
All very interesting!
GA Executed, Toga applied, however being slow to attain the proper pitch attitude we did not have a positive rate of climb. I was scanning the VSI and one point we actually were hovering around zero/descending a bit. Nothing against the handling pilot though we're all a bit rusty when we jump back in first day after 6 months
Once the proper attitude was attained, we started to climb and I called positive climb, and we retracted the gear etc.
I was asked "why did you delay the positive climb call" and I said because we didn't have a positive rate of climb. The checkie said yeah ok but single engine its inhibiting the performance so the gear needs to come up.
All very interesting!
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I wonder if the enormous amount of speculation can be reduced to this. A reliable source stated he has direct visual evidence from a pilot who witnessed the whole event. That was the 777 landed very hard and bounced. The crew went around from the bounce, retracted the landing gear but instead of climbing away the aircraft maintained semi-level flight at about 100 feet then simply sank into the deck. This suggests that there was a failure to apply sufficient thrust to climb normally after the go-around. Exactly why the captain failed to ensure sufficient thrust was applied for the go-around is unknown as yet. But chances are there was a f**k up in the cockpit along the way.
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I was asked "why did you delay the positive climb call" and I said because we didn't have a positive rate of climb. The checkie said yeah ok but single engine its inhibiting the performance so the gear needs to come up.
I'm with you Major L, in the first instance. If the a/c is within weight and the flaps have been reduced and full power is being applied, then no ROC comes from another problem. Analyse that first before jumping to conclusions. I would have thought that the gear down would not be the primary reason. If you have the power & the attitude you should have the performance. What's the rush? Has PF been a little tardy with establishing the attitude? IMHO better to wait a few seconds and be climbing away than hear the sad sound of scraping metal and think, "oops".
I'm with you Major L, in the first instance. If the a/c is within weight and the flaps have been reduced and full power is being applied, then no ROC comes from another problem. Analyse that first before jumping to conclusions. I would have thought that the gear down would not be the primary reason. If you have the power & the attitude you should have the performance. What's the rush? Has PF been a little tardy with establishing the attitude? IMHO better to wait a few seconds and be climbing away than hear the sad sound of scraping metal and think, "oops".
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GA after flare
Some discussion here about why the aircraft touched down after GA action. FCTM mentions if GA is initiated at 50 ft, acft will sink 30 ft before climbing. In this instance the pilot himself has stated the GA was selected at flare. So I think touch down is possible / normal. There is also the general doubt if GA was properly selected and monitored.
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In the Boeing 777 FCTM chapter 5.66 Approach and Missed Approach it is stated:
If a go-around is initiated before touchdown and touchdown occurs, continue with normal go-around procedures.
Also take this into consideration from another B777 accident case in Paris,
The PF stated that he pushed the AT disconnect switch, located on the throttle levers, unintentionally and by mistake, instead of pushing the TOGA engagement switches(7). He then moved the throttle levers towards maximum thrust.
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Imaging if UAE had a Deborah Hersman ...
... There would have been a heck of a lot less speculation at this point
If perception is reality, so are speculations when there are no rebuttals
... There would have been a heck of a lot less speculation at this point
If perception is reality, so are speculations when there are no rebuttals
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Emirates offers EK521 passengers $7,000 in financial assistance | GulfNews.com
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at least something positive
Emirates offers EK521 passengers $7,000 in financial assistance | GulfNews.com
Emirates offers EK521 passengers $7,000 in financial assistance | GulfNews.com
