Emirates B777 gear collapse @ DXB?
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Question about the personnel chosen to do the evacuation testing for certification.
Is it usually just the one nationality chosen to do the testing, or is it a mixture of nationalities that partake in testing? Of these people would these be first time evacuees or would each manufacturer call on people that have previously tested?
Furthermore, is there any information available on successful evacuations that suggest that one nationality (dare I say from the more developed world) would be more likely to successfully evacuate rather than another?
I remember reading about the Ethiopian crash in the Comoros Islands that attributed a lot of deaths by drowning as people inflated lifejackets prior to exiting the aircraft and could have survived.
Is it usually just the one nationality chosen to do the testing, or is it a mixture of nationalities that partake in testing? Of these people would these be first time evacuees or would each manufacturer call on people that have previously tested?
Furthermore, is there any information available on successful evacuations that suggest that one nationality (dare I say from the more developed world) would be more likely to successfully evacuate rather than another?
I remember reading about the Ethiopian crash in the Comoros Islands that attributed a lot of deaths by drowning as people inflated lifejackets prior to exiting the aircraft and could have survived.
Question about the personnel chosen to do the evacuation testing for certification.
Is it usually just the one nationality chosen to do the testing, or is it a mixture of nationalities that partake in testing?
Is it usually just the one nationality chosen to do the testing, or is it a mixture of nationalities that partake in testing?
Of these people would these be first time evacuees or would each manufacturer call on people that have previously tested?
Anecdote: They came around and asked me once. But I made a comment about their procedure for handling the overwing (plug type) exit doors. They requested that the person sitting at the door carefully open it and carefully place it on the adjacent seat (because this was a plane that they were going to sell). I remarked that people tripping over the door as they exited would distort the actual evacuation time. And if I were sitting there in real life, I'd just take the door, turn it sideways and frisbee-toss it out the opening.
They excused me from the test.
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For one, you have to sort out liability for checked valuables between check-in and return-to-pax - because currently neither airline nor handling agents nor pax's insurers will accept it. Or you ask pax to accept liability for your own systems being so prone to loss/theft that the risk is uninsurable...
For two, you need to work out what to do about pax with life-essential medication and/or medical equipment. Currently such pax are advised (by various official sources) that this stuff _must_ be in cabin baggage (with backups in checked baggage). I know this because, as of 18months ago, I am such a pax, and if/when I do fly again I will have to consider how to handle this.
There's a bunch of other issues that I can think of without even trying, but the big one from an economics point of view is that you have to remove all non-food/drink air-side shops (which is actually fine by me, but you'll need to work out which airports/airlines will still be economic).
Not rightly sure I see that in excess of 10 knot tailwind. 
The mishap occurred at about 0845Z and they 'landed' on runway 12L.
Here's the reported hourly weather observations from an earlier post on this thread:
Are you looking at the TEMPO perhaps?
Some airlines buy data from the manufacturer for 15 knot tailwinds and also higher OAT's, not sure if it is available for the Triple.
If you demanded a landing into the traffic flow at ATL or JFK you'd probably hear from the chief pilot's office, right?
The mishap occurred at about 0845Z and they 'landed' on runway 12L.
Here's the reported hourly weather observations from an earlier post on this thread:
Are you looking at the TEMPO perhaps?
Some airlines buy data from the manufacturer for 15 knot tailwinds and also higher OAT's, not sure if it is available for the Triple.
If you demanded a landing into the traffic flow at ATL or JFK you'd probably hear from the chief pilot's office, right?
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I hate getting involved in such discussions, however, the sort of people LIKELY to be in tourist on a flight like this are probably very poor and going to the Middle East to work at rates that will seem low to us and very good to them. They will be going with items that to them have great money or sentimental value - these are things that "should" be considered.
They probably don't have the attitude that what is in their bags is disposable.
Look above at the pilot (???) who had a list of 4 or so things he would want to take with him. He has the luxury of thinking deeply about these things and the fact that he has employers, banks and friends who have the resources to easily help him out.
They probably don't have the attitude that what is in their bags is disposable.
Look above at the pilot (???) who had a list of 4 or so things he would want to take with him. He has the luxury of thinking deeply about these things and the fact that he has employers, banks and friends who have the resources to easily help him out.
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Sure you could demand a landing against the flow. but my guess is you'd be in the Hold For quite some time before they found an openin for you. These conditions are standard for DXB with it being a coastal airport in extreme temps. There's often a different wind at the touchdown point to the midpoint; so what do you do? There was nothing here today that was even mildly abnormal for Dubai. I suspect there will be something else that comes out of it eventually. The 10kt tail at touchdown will be negligible for EMirates pilots.
Scroll through the evac footage frame by frame, it has a wealth of informative still frames
Light Mist or smoke in central section of cabin?
A flood of light forward indicates perhaps doors already open before video starts..
Passengers queuing in isle with bags before video starts.
O2 panels hanging down, perhaps one or two passengers wondering if they are supposed to put mask on?
PA announcement "cabin crew, captain has ordered (inaudible) evacuation)"
Left side door behind wing is open and slide fully Inflated but comprehensively snagged and unusable.
Passengers blocking isles as they retrieve luggage, while children behind them struggle to get by!
Possible a contributing factor to speed of egress was shallower angle of slide due to lower height from ground, so there is congestion on the slide, passengers stationary, takes 20-30 seconds having cleared door to clear the slide. 15 or so people on the slide at one time, some climbing over bags.
Fire Command and control vehicle (or ambulance?) at left rear of plane.
No fire trucks visible to left side of fuselage.
Cabin attendant runs down asle from Center of cabin.
Cabin attendant at door screaming leave bags behind.
No PA announcement to leave bags behind was recorded.
In my view
evacuation of passenger (to door) with camera from impact was longer than 90 seconds.
Evacuation from the time passengers started to stand up also probably longer than 90 seconds.
Evacuation from impact to bottom of slide was over 2 minutes.
Bit late at the door to tell passengers to leave bags, better at that point they should hang onto them or they could drop them near door and cause a blockage?
Many Airlines make it expensive for a family to sit together by charging for the privelage of allocated seats. I've always felt this is unconscionable policy, I'll now add that kids seperated from parents in an evac is as potent a threat to speedy egress as passengers seperated from hand luggage.
It should be a policy that parents not be penalised for wishing to look after their children.
To the fit looking business guys blocking the isle, forget your bloody laptop, help the nearest parent!
Light Mist or smoke in central section of cabin?
A flood of light forward indicates perhaps doors already open before video starts..
Passengers queuing in isle with bags before video starts.
O2 panels hanging down, perhaps one or two passengers wondering if they are supposed to put mask on?
PA announcement "cabin crew, captain has ordered (inaudible) evacuation)"
Left side door behind wing is open and slide fully Inflated but comprehensively snagged and unusable.
Passengers blocking isles as they retrieve luggage, while children behind them struggle to get by!
Possible a contributing factor to speed of egress was shallower angle of slide due to lower height from ground, so there is congestion on the slide, passengers stationary, takes 20-30 seconds having cleared door to clear the slide. 15 or so people on the slide at one time, some climbing over bags.
Fire Command and control vehicle (or ambulance?) at left rear of plane.
No fire trucks visible to left side of fuselage.
Cabin attendant runs down asle from Center of cabin.
Cabin attendant at door screaming leave bags behind.
No PA announcement to leave bags behind was recorded.
In my view
evacuation of passenger (to door) with camera from impact was longer than 90 seconds.
Evacuation from the time passengers started to stand up also probably longer than 90 seconds.
Evacuation from impact to bottom of slide was over 2 minutes.
Bit late at the door to tell passengers to leave bags, better at that point they should hang onto them or they could drop them near door and cause a blockage?
Many Airlines make it expensive for a family to sit together by charging for the privelage of allocated seats. I've always felt this is unconscionable policy, I'll now add that kids seperated from parents in an evac is as potent a threat to speedy egress as passengers seperated from hand luggage.
It should be a policy that parents not be penalised for wishing to look after their children.
To the fit looking business guys blocking the isle, forget your bloody laptop, help the nearest parent!
Last edited by mickjoebill; 3rd Aug 2016 at 21:29.
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Julio747 - "Are you suggesting he got a GA command half way through a bounce???? Nonsense...."
It's not nonsense. Our manuals talk about the options after a bounced landing. One is a G/A.
It's not nonsense. Our manuals talk about the options after a bounced landing. One is a G/A.
I muss say that I am a surprised by what seems a relatively minor fire at evac time escalate into a complete hull burnout, including apparently one fire firefighter being killed.
No idea what happened here (was that the slide exploding ? Cargo ?) but clearly they simply did not manage to put the fire out, despite (most likely) having ample equipment. Not criticizing in any shape of form, but there will be most likely interesting conclusions from the fire fighting aspects of this accident.
No idea what happened here (was that the slide exploding ? Cargo ?) but clearly they simply did not manage to put the fire out, despite (most likely) having ample equipment. Not criticizing in any shape of form, but there will be most likely interesting conclusions from the fire fighting aspects of this accident.
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Clearly the CC did a fantastic job evacuating everyone unscathed.
What is fascinating to see though is the video from inside the plane during the EVAC and just seeing the sheer state of confusion and panic within the plane as some are trying to get out, others are putting on masks, and finally people are blocking the aisles trying to get their precious luggage out of the racks.
Maybe instead of showing 4 different videos before T/O with info everyone already knows, the airlines should drill into people not to take their luggage with them during an EVAC.
What is fascinating to see though is the video from inside the plane during the EVAC and just seeing the sheer state of confusion and panic within the plane as some are trying to get out, others are putting on masks, and finally people are blocking the aisles trying to get their precious luggage out of the racks.
Maybe instead of showing 4 different videos before T/O with info everyone already knows, the airlines should drill into people not to take their luggage with them during an EVAC.
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Lots of anger it seems for the people that were reaching for their personal possessions.
A planeload of mainly non-English speaking people, many of whom might be economic migrants with little to their name, may not see things in quite the logical way that some others might.
A planeload of mainly non-English speaking people, many of whom might be economic migrants with little to their name, may not see things in quite the logical way that some others might.
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It's already been done, and quite frankly I don't see how it is not a valid contributing factor. I can absolutely see a tired pilot getting their procedures mixed up and calling for a gear retract during G/A even when they shouldn't for the windshear. Fairly simple mistake to make if you're drowsy.
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Atakacs
The video filmed the evacuation from the left hand side, the engine is still attached. Did you bother to watch the external videos showing the right hand side, the major fire and subsequent explosion?
I muss say that I am a surprised by what seems a relatively minor fire at evac time escalate into a complete hull burnout, including apparently one fire firefighter being killed.
No idea what happened here (was that the slide exploding ? Cargo ?) but clearly they simply did not manage to put the fire out, despite (most likely) having ample equipment. Not criticizing in any shape of form, but there will be most likely interesting conclusions from the fire fighting aspects of this accident.
No idea what happened here (was that the slide exploding ? Cargo ?) but clearly they simply did not manage to put the fire out, despite (most likely) having ample equipment. Not criticizing in any shape of form, but there will be most likely interesting conclusions from the fire fighting aspects of this accident.
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I'm afraid I'm in agreement with InSeat19c.
Whilst we all believe we will behave in a certain manner in an extreme situation we can never be sure what we will do when faced with it for real.
I agree that reaching for your overhead belonging is, in my opinion, foolish you have to consider that perhaps these people might well be willing to risk their life and others for what's in the bag.
If you've ever seen the queues for the Indian Bullets in the UAE you would understand.
What I say from the front is irrelevant, when the sh*t hits the fan any plan goes out the window with it in the cabin! The cabin crew do an excellent job attempting to guide the herd out of the doors. They are the real heroes here.
Whilst we all believe we will behave in a certain manner in an extreme situation we can never be sure what we will do when faced with it for real.
I agree that reaching for your overhead belonging is, in my opinion, foolish you have to consider that perhaps these people might well be willing to risk their life and others for what's in the bag.
If you've ever seen the queues for the Indian Bullets in the UAE you would understand.
What I say from the front is irrelevant, when the sh*t hits the fan any plan goes out the window with it in the cabin! The cabin crew do an excellent job attempting to guide the herd out of the doors. They are the real heroes here.
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It is easy to criticise the cabin baggage brigade, slides blowing in the wind, engines exploding and the causes of the accident. Surely the most important lesson is that everyone on board survived. this must be due to the advances in safety procedures, equipment, aircraft design protocols etc over the past decades. The industry has moved forward.