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Etihad flight delayed 20hrs due wrong tow bar

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Etihad flight delayed 20hrs due wrong tow bar

Old 1st Aug 2016, 07:22
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Can you not power back with this plane? I've run into the same issue in austere locales with a CRJ and there's a procedure for reverse thrust, powered pushback. I'm pretty sure the 73 can do it too but I'm too lazy to go check my manuals.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 11:09
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 4runner
Can you not power back with this plane?
Even if you can, whether you will be allowed to or not will depend on which airport you're at. There's no reference in the EGPH AIP to say whether it is permitted or not.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 12:26
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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Up to a point I suppose, in theory, you can power back most civil airliners.

At LGW in the days of the South Park stands, I had occasion to reverse a Britannia or two (4 x 16ft props) off the stand with ATC permission. I did it again at BOM when parked at a terminal gate - which was on fire as was the terminal, so I just got on with it. Had to save the aircraft, it was the only one we had at the time!
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 12:43
  #44 (permalink)  
 
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Virgin Atlantic had a similar problem when they had to divert to AMS a couple of years back: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...system-196102/
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 12:50
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Originally Posted by falcon12
Up to a point I suppose, in theory, you can power back most civil airliners.

At LGW in the days of the South Park stands, I had occasion to reverse a Britannia or two (4 x 16ft props) off the stand with ATC permission. I did it again at BOM when parked at a terminal gate - which was on fire as was the terminal, so I just got on with it. Had to save the aircraft, it was the only one we had at the time!
Many moons ago, I used to watch in amazement when Britannias used to reverse in at the old Newcastle airport, not at the time having any understanding of reverse pitch/thrust.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 13:38
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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The question has been asked, and answered by 411A, of all people (RIP).
Can a A340-600 powerback?
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 14:35
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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I hope the airline informed all of the passengers that according to EU rules, they are each entitled to 600 euros cash compensation for the delay, in addition to a hotel room and meals and other necessary items.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 15:53
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Just one question on the topic- where the flight bringing the tow-bar was parked the next day? And did they leave the tow-bar there?
Were they planning to leave it there, or were they planning to stop somewhere after pushback and open up the hold to get it in?

The lack of standardization and initiative in this event both amaze me. Is there no strong point they could have passed a rope through or round and then recruited a team of heavy horses from a local brewery to go on the other end?
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 19:22
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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The lack of standardization and initiative in this event both amaze me. Is there no strong point they could have passed a rope through or round and then recruited a team of heavy horses from a local brewery to go on the other end?

Exactly: a push-back tug can pull as well as push. All it takes is some creative latertal thinking. What would they have done if the country where they were parked was under imminent threat of invasion, the airport in imminent danger of attack and the pax were the diplomatic crew of the airlines home country and they had flown in on a rescue mission? I doubt they'd be off to the nearest hotel waiting for a tow-bar.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 20:16
  #50 (permalink)  
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Potentially after the tug has done its pulling, stopping the aircraft could be fun. Especially on a downhill slope. I'd try it in an emergency but not for a casual turn around. Wouldn't fancy explaining to management why the aircraft was sitting on its tail.

Originally Posted by RAT 5
Exactly: a push-back tug can pull as well as push. All it takes is some creative latertal thinking. What would they have done if the country where they were parked was under imminent threat of invasion, the airport in imminent danger of attack and the pax were the diplomatic crew of the airlines home country and they had flown in on a rescue mission? I doubt they'd be off to the nearest hotel waiting for a tow-bar.
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Old 1st Aug 2016, 20:21
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"then recruited a team of heavy horses from a local brewery to go on the other end"
That's probably a no-go, it doesn't sound as though they could organise a ""-up in a brewery !
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 06:32
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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CSD: You start the APU and use the a/c brakes.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 06:49
  #53 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RAT 5
CSD: You start the APU and use the a/c brakes.
I think CSD's point was that if you apply any more than minimal braking while the aircraft is travelling backwards, the consequences could be very embarrassing.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 07:51
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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So then you use 2 tugs as per a ship and have a puller at both ends, but avoid the tug of war. Or you start the outboard engines to keep the rear tug out of the blast and use thrust to brake the reversing a/c, as you would during power-back. It sounds like the whole issue was a 'risk assessment' scenario. I have to admit, that if there was no critical threat, e.g. the war zone idea I described, then I might offer Ops all the options and let them decide what level of risk they wanted to take. It's the company's train-set, and it's on the ground, so let Ground Ops assess/take the risk and make the decision. The risk is bent metal or commercial via a delay.
If someone was going to start shooting at me I would do everything to FOPDQ.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 09:16
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So then you use 2 tugs as per a ship and have a puller at both ends, but avoid the tug of war. Or you start the outboard engines to keep the rear tug out of the blast and use thrust to brake the reversing a/c, as you would during power-back. It sounds like the whole issue was a 'risk assessment' scenario. I have to admit, that if there was no critical threat, e.g. the war zone idea I described, then I might offer Ops all the options and let them decide what level of risk they wanted to take. It's the company's train-set, and it's on the ground, so let Ground Ops assess/take the risk and make the decision. The risk is bent metal or commercial via a delay.
You should apply for a job at Edinburgh airport!
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 09:40
  #56 (permalink)  
 
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Recall Orlando 1990 when Eastern were bankrupt so saving money on pushbacks .
727,757 and DC9 all powering back off stand with reversers. The A300's had a tug !
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 16:42
  #57 (permalink)  
 
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Good luck trying to explain that one to management or the insurance company when it all goes tits up and you've got an A346 sat on it's arse, or impaled in the side of a lamp post.

The only safe way to move an aircraft of this size is with an appropriate tow bar. Using rope doesn't allow for a safe pushback and no company in their right mind would try it (whether it be airline or handling agent)
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 16:59
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Shame Scotland didn't declare war on England for the Brexit vote and threaten to impound all foreign a/c then any means of escape is acceptable. (Joke for those who might be thinking otherwise. It's been a tough week.) However, parking large unexpected a/c at smaller UK airfields has its dangers. Evidence at CWL many years ago a large American a/c of - I forget type - being 'follow me'd onto a nose out stand for which there was no precedent and swiping its wingtip thought the upper level windows of the terminal.
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Old 2nd Aug 2016, 23:43
  #59 (permalink)  
 
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Yes Rat, it appears some can't grasp your subtle change of tone... maybe a sense of humour is not allowed in SOPs these days...

A 146 was pushed out of a parking FUBAR by the pax a few years ago... was in NZ. The local sheep were asked but said no, they didn't want to be involved in any bum-tipping.
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Old 4th Aug 2016, 09:05
  #60 (permalink)  
 
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bear in mind folks, creativity went out the window many moons ago at out airlines, due to insurance liabilities, etc...unless a specific procedure is outlined in a FCOM, or some other approved company publication, a power back, while physically possible, would be foolhardy at best...727's DC-9's etc did it regularly in the USA anyway, it was discouraged in the 757/767 FCOMs due to FOD ingestion possibilities.. (although apparently some operators did)...
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