RYANAIR Police Raid in Germany
Not sure what the legal system there is. According to the article, the health insurance sets what you may do when on sick leave. Their health insurance apparently even limited the times when they could leave their house. Incredible, this is like jail!
My apologies if this is thread drift - in which case this post will disappear like snow in summer - but in France, if you are on sick leave, the Sécurité Sociale also imposes rules on when you may leave the house during the working day if you are not going to the doctor or the pharmacie, regardless of which industry you are working in or even if you have no employment at all. The German regulations quoted above do not surprise me in the least!
My apologies if this is thread drift - in which case this post will disappear like snow in summer - but in France, if you are on sick leave, the Sécurité Sociale also imposes rules on when you may leave the house during the working day if you are not going to the doctor or the pharmacie, regardless of which industry you are working in or even if you have no employment at all. The German regulations quoted above do not surprise me in the least!
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I am an EX BRK guy who voted with his feet.
I started as a Ryanair employee and once I finished my line training I was told I had to resign from Ryanair and sign a BRK contract. I had this for about 5 years then was told I had to set up a limited contract with some random accountant I had never heard of.
Needless to say I started looking right away for a new job and moved as soon as I could have and away from this more than shady employment model.
I don't want to see Ryanair gone as it works for a lot of people and pays a lot of peoples mortgage. But they need to be forced to play the game properly.
I started as a Ryanair employee and once I finished my line training I was told I had to resign from Ryanair and sign a BRK contract. I had this for about 5 years then was told I had to set up a limited contract with some random accountant I had never heard of.
Needless to say I started looking right away for a new job and moved as soon as I could have and away from this more than shady employment model.
I don't want to see Ryanair gone as it works for a lot of people and pays a lot of peoples mortgage. But they need to be forced to play the game properly.
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I started as a Ryanair employee and once I finished my line training I was told I had to resign from Ryanair and sign a BRK contract.
Did you know about that before you started paying out for your type rating? Or did they tell you once you started your line training. In the sim I assume you were not on any contract, but if you were later an employee and then forced to resign that sounds like you, and assume others, would have a claim for wrongful dismissal.
Did you know about that before you started paying out for your type rating? Or did they tell you once you started your line training. In the sim I assume you were not on any contract, but if you were later an employee and then forced to resign that sounds like you, and assume others, would have a claim for wrongful dismissal.
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Not sure what the legal system there is. According to the article, the health insurance sets what you may do when on sick leave. Their health insurance apparently even limited the times when they could leave their house. Incredible, this is like jail!
E.g. I had a sore back few weeks ago and went to the doctor, got a few days sick leave and was told to go swimming and see the physiotherapist. No times given, nor would they be restricted by the insurance or anybody else.
I´m German and pay into the German health system since 1983.
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RAT 5
Back then it was a case of when you finished your line training you either got a BRK contract or a Ryanair one. I think we were all initially just on a training contract that expired once line checked. I was paid about £1200 a month while training as a PAYE Ryanair employee.
Was all very odd but been early 20's and new to flying I knew no better or different. That was just what was offered when I asked for a job.
I obviously would never put up with that again. I do feel like I was taken advantage of.
Back then it was a case of when you finished your line training you either got a BRK contract or a Ryanair one. I think we were all initially just on a training contract that expired once line checked. I was paid about £1200 a month while training as a PAYE Ryanair employee.
Was all very odd but been early 20's and new to flying I knew no better or different. That was just what was offered when I asked for a job.
I obviously would never put up with that again. I do feel like I was taken advantage of.
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I think these days Ryanair contract pilots do not work for BRK or Storm. They are forced by Ryanair to open a limited company in Ireland. Ryanair supplies the contact of lawyers who help to set it up for the pilots. And the company must be in Ireland. There is no other choice. So technically the pilots work for the Irish limited company they have set up. And the corporate tax is around 15%. If you want to withdraw personal income it is another 40%. I do not work for Ryanair. I have only heard that. My info might be wrong. But the Irish limited company is probably the one in trouble. And that is owned by the pilot.
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Very good press release issued by the German pilot Association/Union VC on the issue ( unfortunately for some , only avail in German at the moment ).
Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. :
Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. :
My translation
My understanding of the German press article is (and I bear no responsibility if it's incorrect or slanderous)
House searches of Ryanair pilots
Several searches have been made in recent weeks in Germany of the homes of Ryanair pilots. That these searches have been conducted by the "Finanzkontrolle Scheinselbständigkeit" (FKS), it follows that those legally responsible for the employment model of these pilots, with intermediary employment agencies, amount to bogus self-employment and moonlighting. The Association urges the Ryanair to stop these dodgy business practices immediately and to employ their pilots directly. Price wars may be no longer held on the backs of workers, especially not in such sensitive environments such as air transport.
In Germany, it is estimated that more than 10% of all pilots are unemployed. Companies such as Ryanair, lead in taking advantage of this situation to get pilots in atypical employment relationships. So, a scientific study by the University of Ghent (Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. : Atypical employment) revealed that 16% of all pilots are employed using such dubious methods. A tendency which is rising. Increasingly, pilots are accepted only if they are ready a so called "contractor", without any protection, such as during holiday and illness, and all this after these pilots have paid EUR 30,000 training costs and also commit themselves to pay fine to EUR 5,000, if they leave Ryanair within three months
Since the House searches were conducted by the FKS, it can be assumed that the use of these contracts with intermediary agencies can be regarded as bogus and therefore undeclared work. Markus Wahl, spokesman of the Association cockpit "It seems that Ryanair treats it’s pilots with contempt, having imposed such conditions to now be saying that it is up to pilots to ensure they fulfill any tax liabilities".
The pilots are the weakest link in the chain. The VC calls for Ryanair, in light of the customs focus, to immediately adjust their business practices with dodgy agencies such as Brookfield and McGinley and to directly employ their pilots like all reputable airlines and to establish a social partnership with the respective trade unions under the umbrella of the European Pilot Association ECA.
Martin Locher, Vice President of the Pilots Association (VC) , has said "The VC also calls for Ryanair to introduce standard conditions for their workers, which guarantee a regular basic income in case of illness and prevent practices such as involuntary transfers across Europe. Low cost airlines must also accept unions like all other airlines, and enter into fair negotiations with them. The price wars must no longer be fought on the backs of workers, especially not in security-critical environments such as air transport".
House searches of Ryanair pilots
Several searches have been made in recent weeks in Germany of the homes of Ryanair pilots. That these searches have been conducted by the "Finanzkontrolle Scheinselbständigkeit" (FKS), it follows that those legally responsible for the employment model of these pilots, with intermediary employment agencies, amount to bogus self-employment and moonlighting. The Association urges the Ryanair to stop these dodgy business practices immediately and to employ their pilots directly. Price wars may be no longer held on the backs of workers, especially not in such sensitive environments such as air transport.
In Germany, it is estimated that more than 10% of all pilots are unemployed. Companies such as Ryanair, lead in taking advantage of this situation to get pilots in atypical employment relationships. So, a scientific study by the University of Ghent (Vereinigung Cockpit e.V. : Atypical employment) revealed that 16% of all pilots are employed using such dubious methods. A tendency which is rising. Increasingly, pilots are accepted only if they are ready a so called "contractor", without any protection, such as during holiday and illness, and all this after these pilots have paid EUR 30,000 training costs and also commit themselves to pay fine to EUR 5,000, if they leave Ryanair within three months
Since the House searches were conducted by the FKS, it can be assumed that the use of these contracts with intermediary agencies can be regarded as bogus and therefore undeclared work. Markus Wahl, spokesman of the Association cockpit "It seems that Ryanair treats it’s pilots with contempt, having imposed such conditions to now be saying that it is up to pilots to ensure they fulfill any tax liabilities".
The pilots are the weakest link in the chain. The VC calls for Ryanair, in light of the customs focus, to immediately adjust their business practices with dodgy agencies such as Brookfield and McGinley and to directly employ their pilots like all reputable airlines and to establish a social partnership with the respective trade unions under the umbrella of the European Pilot Association ECA.
Martin Locher, Vice President of the Pilots Association (VC) , has said "The VC also calls for Ryanair to introduce standard conditions for their workers, which guarantee a regular basic income in case of illness and prevent practices such as involuntary transfers across Europe. Low cost airlines must also accept unions like all other airlines, and enter into fair negotiations with them. The price wars must no longer be fought on the backs of workers, especially not in security-critical environments such as air transport".
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Perhaps the reason for raiding the employees' homes is to gather evidence of full-time work for a single employer, as well as what they gather from Ryanair.
A corporation might well hide that information at head office, but an individual is more likely to keep it in their house, and a copy of a flying schedule, any payments, etc, will be evidence whether obtained from the pilot or Ryanair. Meanwhile, to try to prove that Ryanair is operating pilots as individual full-time subcontractors working only for Ryanair, the authorities would need to show they had tried to find evidence of this person working for anyone other than Ryanair and had not found it.
So the German authorities might well raid some pilots' houses without being after the pilots, although clearly that doesn't make it any nicer for the pilots.
A corporation might well hide that information at head office, but an individual is more likely to keep it in their house, and a copy of a flying schedule, any payments, etc, will be evidence whether obtained from the pilot or Ryanair. Meanwhile, to try to prove that Ryanair is operating pilots as individual full-time subcontractors working only for Ryanair, the authorities would need to show they had tried to find evidence of this person working for anyone other than Ryanair and had not found it.
So the German authorities might well raid some pilots' houses without being after the pilots, although clearly that doesn't make it any nicer for the pilots.
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This is rife in the industry, and it is hardly fair to single out the pilots, when they often have little control over these contracts.
One of the worst I saw was a contract from a Belgian company. The contract was with an agent in the UK, and they paid your social taxes. And they were doing so wrongly. But the UK registered contract (which was incongruously in a foreign language), stated that if the angent was caught by the authorities, the pilot had to:
a. Take all the blame.
b. Swear in court that the agent was in the right.
c. Pay all the fines.
d. Pay all the legal fees of the agent.
e. Pay all the legal fees of the airline.
Yes, that is what the contract said. Our induction course was divided - half signed and half walked away. But it is difficult to walk away, when you have a wife and kid to feed, and these agents know this. The response from the agent was: "well, we have a nice contract for you in Nigeria or Congo, if you don't want Brussels...". They also threatened to sue me for breach of contract in walking away, because they thought I had signed - but I had not, I has simply put an 'X' on the contract and sent it back.
And I might add that the contract had no pension, health benefits, holiday entitlement, union representation or employment security. And a third of the salary was paid by cheque from Morocco (in addition to the other tax-evading shenanigans). Such is the state of aviation.
Silver
One of the worst I saw was a contract from a Belgian company. The contract was with an agent in the UK, and they paid your social taxes. And they were doing so wrongly. But the UK registered contract (which was incongruously in a foreign language), stated that if the angent was caught by the authorities, the pilot had to:
a. Take all the blame.
b. Swear in court that the agent was in the right.
c. Pay all the fines.
d. Pay all the legal fees of the agent.
e. Pay all the legal fees of the airline.
Yes, that is what the contract said. Our induction course was divided - half signed and half walked away. But it is difficult to walk away, when you have a wife and kid to feed, and these agents know this. The response from the agent was: "well, we have a nice contract for you in Nigeria or Congo, if you don't want Brussels...". They also threatened to sue me for breach of contract in walking away, because they thought I had signed - but I had not, I has simply put an 'X' on the contract and sent it back.
And I might add that the contract had no pension, health benefits, holiday entitlement, union representation or employment security. And a third of the salary was paid by cheque from Morocco (in addition to the other tax-evading shenanigans). Such is the state of aviation.
Silver
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Perhaps the reason for raiding the employees' homes is to gather evidence of full-time work for a single employer, as well as what they gather from Ryanair.
A corporation might well hide that information at head office, but an individual is more likely to keep it in their house, and a copy of a flying schedule, any payments, etc, will be evidence whether obtained from the pilot or Ryanair. Meanwhile, to try to prove that Ryanair is operating pilots as individual full-time subcontractors working only for Ryanair, the authorities would need to show they had tried to find evidence of this person working for anyone other than Ryanair and had not found it.
So the German authorities might well raid some pilots' houses without being after the pilots, although clearly that doesn't make it any nicer for the pilots.
A corporation might well hide that information at head office, but an individual is more likely to keep it in their house, and a copy of a flying schedule, any payments, etc, will be evidence whether obtained from the pilot or Ryanair. Meanwhile, to try to prove that Ryanair is operating pilots as individual full-time subcontractors working only for Ryanair, the authorities would need to show they had tried to find evidence of this person working for anyone other than Ryanair and had not found it.
So the German authorities might well raid some pilots' houses without being after the pilots, although clearly that doesn't make it any nicer for the pilots.
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Sure gathering add. evidence against BRK or Ryanair was also a part of the mission. But unfortunate the pilots are also liable and they will get their bill.
Sure, perhaps: but if they can establish, or it is established for them, that they had been an employee all the time, then they can claim for unpaid holiday pay, unpaid national insurance into the government pension etc. etc and that back claim can cover quite a few years. You can't have one without the other. Unpaid taxes is one thing, bogus self-employment is another. They are 2 quite separate issues and need to be treated differently.
This is the tip of a very sizeable iceberg. Much depends on how deep the authorities want to dive. It would be unjust if they stopped at the vulnerable exposed tip.
Sure, perhaps: but if they can establish, or it is established for them, that they had been an employee all the time, then they can claim for unpaid holiday pay, unpaid national insurance into the government pension etc. etc and that back claim can cover quite a few years. You can't have one without the other. Unpaid taxes is one thing, bogus self-employment is another. They are 2 quite separate issues and need to be treated differently.
This is the tip of a very sizeable iceberg. Much depends on how deep the authorities want to dive. It would be unjust if they stopped at the vulnerable exposed tip.
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Sure, perhaps: but if they can establish, or it is established for them, that they had been an employee all the time, then they can claim for unpaid holiday pay, unpaid national insurance into the government pension etc. etc and that back claim can cover quite a few years. You can't have one without the other. Unpaid taxes is one thing, bogus self-employment is another. They are 2 quite separate issues and need to be treated differently.
This is the tip of a very sizeable iceberg. Much depends on how deep the authorities want to dive. It would be unjust if they stopped at the vulnerable exposed tip.
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Dan Winterland`s thread "Avoiding Social Security Payments" of 14 April 2016 should be merged with this particular thread. Dan kicked off with a German police raid on a brothel and soon thereafter Brookfield Aviation International Ltd and Ryanair were in the melee.
For everyone's convenience:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-payments.html
As a follower of a current thread on Private Flying, I was amused to read the name of the brothel!
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...-payments.html
As a follower of a current thread on Private Flying, I was amused to read the name of the brothel!
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Schwarzarbeit!
Here in Germany there's a thing called that, "black work." You need the roof repaired, then you get Heinz Hackelschmackel from across town, who happens to work as a roofer. He shows up on the weekend, does the job, gets paid in cash, and vanishes. Same quality work for half the price, so what is not to like?
The kicker is that if Heinz gets caught doing this then you the employer are on the hook for not having paid various taxes, plus he's not insured under the German health-care system for on-the-job injuries. Say he falls off the roof, as sometimes happens .... All hell breaks loose then.
Just a visit from the Arbeitsamt is enough to mean big trouble, when they are even known to swoop upon a gang of navvies, checking if they all are properly employed or not. It's like la migra in the States chasing wetbacks, but done for German citizens working off the books.
So how about using Heinz Hackelschmackel GmbH, which is what Ryanair has been doing? Then the test must be whether Heinz works exclusively for you, or whether he has other customers. If you are his only customer then other tests also might be applied. Do you set his schedule, along with his terms and conditions? Does he present himself to your customers as your employer, wearing your uniform and flying your equipment?
If the guy lives and works in Germany but claims to be self-employed through an agency in Ireland, paying lower Irish taxes while Ryanair pay nothing at all ... I don't see the Germans going along with that loophole. Too, the tax authorities can go back eight years, with the statute of limitations only running from when the tax problem first came to light.
MOL has a certain amount of "pull," since his choosing this or that German airport means increased passenger numbers in a time of austerity. He might get away with only a slap on the wrist if Germany needs Ryanair more than vice-versa. On the other hand, if the pilots can show that a somewhat fake self-employment contract was the only one on offer from Ryanair (as it probably was) then they might be able to escape being totally screwed.
The kicker is that if Heinz gets caught doing this then you the employer are on the hook for not having paid various taxes, plus he's not insured under the German health-care system for on-the-job injuries. Say he falls off the roof, as sometimes happens .... All hell breaks loose then.
Just a visit from the Arbeitsamt is enough to mean big trouble, when they are even known to swoop upon a gang of navvies, checking if they all are properly employed or not. It's like la migra in the States chasing wetbacks, but done for German citizens working off the books.
So how about using Heinz Hackelschmackel GmbH, which is what Ryanair has been doing? Then the test must be whether Heinz works exclusively for you, or whether he has other customers. If you are his only customer then other tests also might be applied. Do you set his schedule, along with his terms and conditions? Does he present himself to your customers as your employer, wearing your uniform and flying your equipment?
If the guy lives and works in Germany but claims to be self-employed through an agency in Ireland, paying lower Irish taxes while Ryanair pay nothing at all ... I don't see the Germans going along with that loophole. Too, the tax authorities can go back eight years, with the statute of limitations only running from when the tax problem first came to light.
MOL has a certain amount of "pull," since his choosing this or that German airport means increased passenger numbers in a time of austerity. He might get away with only a slap on the wrist if Germany needs Ryanair more than vice-versa. On the other hand, if the pilots can show that a somewhat fake self-employment contract was the only one on offer from Ryanair (as it probably was) then they might be able to escape being totally screwed.
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Coincidence that this happens just as DLH are struggling to get their Eurowings / Germanwings / whatever-it's-called-this-week project solidly established ?
I don't think so....
On the other hand, it would be nice to see Mr O'L take one where it hurts most, even though with him its his pockets and not the zip area between them.
I don't think so....
On the other hand, it would be nice to see Mr O'L take one where it hurts most, even though with him its his pockets and not the zip area between them.
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Coincidence that this happens just as DLH are struggling to get their Eurowings / Germanwings / whatever-it's-called-this-week project solidly established ?
I don't think so....
On the other hand, it would be nice to see Mr O'L take one where it hurts most, even though with him its his pockets and not the zip area between them.
I don't think so....
On the other hand, it would be nice to see Mr O'L take one where it hurts most, even though with him its his pockets and not the zip area between them.
Those investigations are nothing new, Koblenz public prosecution is chasing BK, Ryanair and Pilots since a couple of years and they are now on the home stretch.
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Yeah, I know it might sound a bit far fetched but let's just wait and see....
The FISC in France had a go at both RY and U2 a few years ago and it was all more or less over and done with within a couple of months and they were brought into the tax net - both staff and companies. How deeply into it, I'm not sure, but deep enough to the FISC's satisfaction.
It really shouldn't need a couple of years for the BZSt to achieve the same result unless they were 'reminded' to get on with it....
The FISC in France had a go at both RY and U2 a few years ago and it was all more or less over and done with within a couple of months and they were brought into the tax net - both staff and companies. How deeply into it, I'm not sure, but deep enough to the FISC's satisfaction.
It really shouldn't need a couple of years for the BZSt to achieve the same result unless they were 'reminded' to get on with it....