EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo
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The last offical Egyptian update was number (21)
Cairo, 3 July 2016
John Lethbrdge; the vessel contracted by the Egyptian government; had retrieved all the human remains that were mapped at the crash location of the A320. The retrieval process was supervised by Egyptian and French forensic doctors onboard of the vessel. The vessel departed from the crash location to the port of Alexandria to deliver the human remains to the general prosecutors and forensic doctors; in the presence of the technical investigation committee members; then for an immediate transport of the human remains to the forensic department in Cairo to start DNA analysis and to carry out standard procedures taken. As the Egyptian government is persistent to stand in solidarity with the victims’ families; the mission of John Lethbridge was extended as it will return back to the crash location to conduct a new thorough scan of the seabed and to search for any human remains till being fully assured of the absence of any more human remains at the crash location.
Note by A0283: The BEA site has been publishing copies of the Egyptian updates. So no confirmation of the Figaro article from any official side yet.
Cairo, 3 July 2016
John Lethbrdge; the vessel contracted by the Egyptian government; had retrieved all the human remains that were mapped at the crash location of the A320. The retrieval process was supervised by Egyptian and French forensic doctors onboard of the vessel. The vessel departed from the crash location to the port of Alexandria to deliver the human remains to the general prosecutors and forensic doctors; in the presence of the technical investigation committee members; then for an immediate transport of the human remains to the forensic department in Cairo to start DNA analysis and to carry out standard procedures taken. As the Egyptian government is persistent to stand in solidarity with the victims’ families; the mission of John Lethbridge was extended as it will return back to the crash location to conduct a new thorough scan of the seabed and to search for any human remains till being fully assured of the absence of any more human remains at the crash location.
Note by A0283: The BEA site has been publishing copies of the Egyptian updates. So no confirmation of the Figaro article from any official side yet.
Last edited by A0283; 5th Jul 2016 at 14:42.
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The report only indicates that one of the pilots was fighting a cockpit fire.
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Here's another article, in French but not behind a paywall. It is also based on the Figaro (paywall) article:
Crash d'Egyptair: un pilote aurait tenté d'éteindre un incendie à bord
There's a piece of this article that I cannot quite catch using Google translate. It seems to be saying something about when the FDR stopped recording. Perhaps someone fluent in French can provide a translation. Is it suggesting that the CVR recorded longer that the FDR? Or is it suggesting that both recorders stopped well before the impact? Or something else?
Crash d'Egyptair: un pilote aurait tenté d'éteindre un incendie à bord
There's a piece of this article that I cannot quite catch using Google translate. It seems to be saying something about when the FDR stopped recording. Perhaps someone fluent in French can provide a translation. Is it suggesting that the CVR recorded longer that the FDR? Or is it suggesting that both recorders stopped well before the impact? Or something else?
Pour l'instant, la nature et les causes du départ de feu n'ont pas pu être déterminées. Selon Le Figaro, ces nouveaux éléments attestent en revanche que le feu n'est pas responsable de l'interruption brutale de l'enregistrement de la première boîte noire. L'appareil aurait continué a voler pendant trois à quatre minutes après la coupure du FDR, avant de s'écraser.
Last edited by .Scott; 5th Jul 2016 at 14:47. Reason: Included portion of report in French that I cannot translate.
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@.Scott
If I read it correctly it says that the FDR stopped recording 3-4 minutes before the crash.
The article refers to an official communique - but I cannot find that yet on the Egyptian (last post July 3rd) or BEA (last post July 2nd) sites ....
It also says that Le Figaro has had access to the CVR information.
The rest of the information in it (apart from a single pilot fighting a fire) was already published.
The article suggests a lot but delivers no substance.
If I read it correctly it says that the FDR stopped recording 3-4 minutes before the crash.
The article refers to an official communique - but I cannot find that yet on the Egyptian (last post July 3rd) or BEA (last post July 2nd) sites ....
It also says that Le Figaro has had access to the CVR information.
The rest of the information in it (apart from a single pilot fighting a fire) was already published.
The article suggests a lot but delivers no substance.
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This?
"Figaro points out that these new elements proved that the fire was not the cause of the abrupt interruption of the first black box's recording. The aircraft would have continued to fly for three to four minutes beyond the cut in the FDR('s recording), before impact."
So yes, I read it as CVR rec. longer than FDR.
'Right now, nature and causes of the fire's origin have not been identified.'
Selon Le Figaro, ces nouveaux éléments attestent en revanche que le feu n'est pas responsable de l'interruption brutale de l'enregistrement de la première boîte noire. L'appareil aurait continué a voler pendant trois à quatre minutes après la coupure du FDR, avant de s'écraser.
So yes, I read it as CVR rec. longer than FDR.
Pour l'instant, la nature et les causes du départ de feu n'ont pas pu être déterminées.
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So yes, I read it as CVR rec. longer than FDR.
If they did indeed select emergency elec config (or lost AC2), this would explain the time difference.
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@.Scott
If I read it correctly it suggests the fire was not the cause of cutting the FDR recording. Which sounds a bit far fetched at this stage. Would surprise me if you could read that from a CVR.
Going over to emergency power and thereby losing recorders might be a factor. But if there was a fire who could determine that it had stopped. In the SR111 case it took the pilots more than 10 minutes to find out that there was a fire.
Would be interesting to have the CVR information they suggest they have.
If I read it correctly it suggests the fire was not the cause of cutting the FDR recording. Which sounds a bit far fetched at this stage. Would surprise me if you could read that from a CVR.
Going over to emergency power and thereby losing recorders might be a factor. But if there was a fire who could determine that it had stopped. In the SR111 case it took the pilots more than 10 minutes to find out that there was a fire.
Would be interesting to have the CVR information they suggest they have.
Latest requirements for a CVR requires it have a a redundant power supply (RIPS) that will last 15 minutes or so after loss of the normal power supply. Came in after too many sudden loss of all data due to explosive devices.
The Sultan
The Sultan
This raises the question: why does the FDR not have a similar supplemental power provision? (There's probably a rational answer, but I am not arriving at it).
I muss say I have difficulties in imagining an accidental fire situation where the pilots wouldn't have a chance to transmit a mayday and, at the very least, initiate a diversion.
Unless, of course, it was some incendiary device.
Unless, of course, it was some incendiary device.
As MS804 descended -- even if they sent out a Mayday it might be that nobody received it. (If other aircraft were within range one would think another aircraft might have heard and reported such, so it's also possible that task loading on the flight deck was high and radio calls weren't as pressing as all other tasks).
Quiet area
Normal for that route at that point - well known "dead spot" lasting for about 10 minutes.
About the handover from Greek to Egyptian controllers
It's about 175 nautical miles from the boundary between the Cairo and Athinai FIRs at waypoint KUMBI to landfall on the Egyptian coast via UL612; So if reports that LKP was 10nm inside the Cairo FIR are correct, that's 165nm or 305km, give or take.
That position is only about 150nm from the Greek islands to the north and northwest, so a touch closer to Greece than to Egypt, but pretty much in the middle.
That position is only about 150nm from the Greek islands to the north and northwest, so a touch closer to Greece than to Egypt, but pretty much in the middle.
Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 5th Jul 2016 at 16:35. Reason: added some bits on quiet zones along the route
Lone
The FDR does not have it because it's data is sourced from widely distributed avionics or sensors. So if they are gone there is nothing to record. On the CVR the RIPS also powers the area mic so at least something may be recorded if that path stays intact. There was an effort to have two dual recorders, one in front and one in back on large airplanes to get something if the fuselage is compromised (TWA 800).
The Sultan
The FDR does not have it because it's data is sourced from widely distributed avionics or sensors. So if they are gone there is nothing to record. On the CVR the RIPS also powers the area mic so at least something may be recorded if that path stays intact. There was an effort to have two dual recorders, one in front and one in back on large airplanes to get something if the fuselage is compromised (TWA 800).
The Sultan
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As MS804 descended -- even if they sent out a Mayday it might be that nobody received it. (If other aircraft were within range one would think another aircraft might have heard and reported such, so it's also possible that task loading on the flight deck was high and radio calls weren't as pressing as all other tasks).
And if he was, there is nothing the outside world could have done to help him.
I would not expect to hear from a pilot fighting a cockpit fire - especially one that he ultimately losses. He can only breath through his mask and he may not be able to see beyond that mask. Given the environment, there is no assurance that the pilot was even conscious immediately before the impact. And if he was, there is nothing the outside world could have done to help him.
"it's also possible that task loading on the flight deck was high and radio calls weren't as pressing as all other tasks"
was less complete than how you said it.
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Starting to make sense
So the ACARS messages pretty much ruled out a bomb. But it could have been an incendiary act.
Now it seems there was a fire in the cockpit. Unlikely to be the place for a pax to start a fire...
Looking very much more like a window heater fault that got out of control down below... Leading eventually to loss of avionics. As has been suggested here already.
Now it seems there was a fire in the cockpit. Unlikely to be the place for a pax to start a fire...
Looking very much more like a window heater fault that got out of control down below... Leading eventually to loss of avionics. As has been suggested here already.
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MS804 follow up: request for a bit more patience
I'm happy that the original thread is closed again and the relevant news has been moved and incorporated.
Quite like the latest information bulletin of the Egyptian Civil Aviation authority (5 July, see quote underneath), actually is asking for a bit more patience and for less speculation.
Of course, there is a fine balance between on the one hand the speed of information, given the seriousness of events in the first place for those directly involved and possibly also for the safety of operations of the type in general, and on the other hand the thoroughness of investigation processes, to reach valid and meaningful conclusions.
The Egyptians are obviously ticking as they are in their own way, so, apart from not having explicitly abided by the ICAO rules to have a first interim report after 1 month, they are at least pretty forthcoming on a regular basis when confirmed news can be released. Let's hope it will continue this way.
BR, Dutch BRU
"Cairo, 5 July 2016
The technical investigation committee would like to assert that it is the only official source of all the releases about the A320 accident and is not responsible for any information released by other sources.
The committee has gathered information that need time to be analyzed and matched to reach some very basic conclusions.
During the coming period, the experts will verifying the information downloaded from the Flight Data Recorder and establish time correlation with the records downloaded from the Cabin Voice Recorder.
The committee urges media to be cautious while issuing press releases about the accident and to only rely on official reports issued by the committee itself."
Quite like the latest information bulletin of the Egyptian Civil Aviation authority (5 July, see quote underneath), actually is asking for a bit more patience and for less speculation.
Of course, there is a fine balance between on the one hand the speed of information, given the seriousness of events in the first place for those directly involved and possibly also for the safety of operations of the type in general, and on the other hand the thoroughness of investigation processes, to reach valid and meaningful conclusions.
The Egyptians are obviously ticking as they are in their own way, so, apart from not having explicitly abided by the ICAO rules to have a first interim report after 1 month, they are at least pretty forthcoming on a regular basis when confirmed news can be released. Let's hope it will continue this way.
BR, Dutch BRU
"Cairo, 5 July 2016
The technical investigation committee would like to assert that it is the only official source of all the releases about the A320 accident and is not responsible for any information released by other sources.
The committee has gathered information that need time to be analyzed and matched to reach some very basic conclusions.
During the coming period, the experts will verifying the information downloaded from the Flight Data Recorder and establish time correlation with the records downloaded from the Cabin Voice Recorder.
The committee urges media to be cautious while issuing press releases about the accident and to only rely on official reports issued by the committee itself."
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EgyptAir 804 - new parts found ?
The latest official update by the investigation
CAIRO - 08 July 2016 (23)
The mission of the ship John Lethbridge is continuing to survey seabed at accident site to ensure no human remains are left behind.
CAIRO - 08 July 2016 (23)
Investigation Progress Report (23) by the EgyptianAircraft Accident Investigation Committee
Investigation committee is coordinating to transfer those wreckage pieces that were found by the Israeli coast in order to ensure that those pieces belongs to the accident aircraft. The mission of the ship John Lethbridge is continuing to survey seabed at accident site to ensure no human remains are left behind.
Last edited by A0283; 10th Jul 2016 at 14:08.
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CAIRO - 09 July 2016
Investigation Progress Report (24) by the Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee
In the context of the Egyptian Government's keeness to recover all the human remains at the crash location of the A320; it was decided to extend the work period of John Lethbridge for a second additional period to last on the 18th of July.
John Lethbridge; the vessel contracted by the Egyptian Government; continues to scan the seabed of the Mediterranean to ensure the absence of any other human remains left at the crash location; whereas forensic doctors onboard of the vessel supervise the transfer of the human remains to the department of forensic medicine in Cairo in order to carry out standard procedures taken in this regard.
Note A0283: The John Lethbridge is on location around this time. So will probably return to Alexandria yet again. Turn around the same day and go out for a last week.
Investigation Progress Report (24) by the Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee
In the context of the Egyptian Government's keeness to recover all the human remains at the crash location of the A320; it was decided to extend the work period of John Lethbridge for a second additional period to last on the 18th of July.
John Lethbridge; the vessel contracted by the Egyptian Government; continues to scan the seabed of the Mediterranean to ensure the absence of any other human remains left at the crash location; whereas forensic doctors onboard of the vessel supervise the transfer of the human remains to the department of forensic medicine in Cairo in order to carry out standard procedures taken in this regard.
Note A0283: The John Lethbridge is on location around this time. So will probably return to Alexandria yet again. Turn around the same day and go out for a last week.
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Egypt Air Flight 804 Likely Broke Up in Air
So the preferred scenario here would be some sort of fire event leading to a loss a control ending up in in flight breakup? If so it might be a hard one to crack...