EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo
Re, ITV's (and others'), reportage that the recorders have "extensive damage", I don't think so.
The actual recorders in the two tubs appear in good shape as far as I can see. They look just like AF447's when those two recorders were retrieved. These reports may be referring to the two recorders' entire structure which, given the condition of retrieved wreckage etc., would not likely be intact; but the actual memory containers appear unharmed.
The actual recorders in the two tubs appear in good shape as far as I can see. They look just like AF447's when those two recorders were retrieved. These reports may be referring to the two recorders' entire structure which, given the condition of retrieved wreckage etc., would not likely be intact; but the actual memory containers appear unharmed.
A0283: I am not faulting your reasoning. (I followed your logic fine the first time). My concern is the varied audience who take declarative statements, without caveats, as though they are more than a hypothesis/theory of the cause of loss. In due course, providing the FDR and CVR data are not lost, we will be able to compare your estimate of the chain of events to one based on harder evidence.
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Re, ITV's (and others'), reportage that the recorders have "extensive damage", I don't think so.
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While the recorders may very well be damaged- the memory units shown appear to be in relatively good shape. Unless they screw up while opening them, the in ternal solid state memory ' stick ' should be useable. And that is what matters.
Hi Machinbird;
Re opening technique, perhaps - but the way AF447's were, by the photographic evidence supplied by the BEA anyway, so carefully and expertly opened, recognizing the extreme importance of what lay inside, would have one believe that the very same approach would be taken by those who actually did the work here. One hopes so, anyway. From the BEA photographs in AF447 Reports, the actual memory-module case appears to be very thick steel; they withstood the pressures that exist in over 3000/4000m of water. The primary difference here would be the very high 'g' loads that the recorders would have experienced at impact.
This said, the memory cases do appear to be unscathed and the actual modules inside likely survived unharmed. The absence of even the minutest updates concerning this phase of the investigation is disappointing, this being uncharacteristic of most investigative bodies, recent exceptions known and acknowledged, and does not serve the transparency necessary to alleviate the felt need for speculation in the absence of data. Like some here who have flown these aircraft, I think there is a felt-need to know as much as possible, as this does not "read" like a terrorist event.
Re opening technique, perhaps - but the way AF447's were, by the photographic evidence supplied by the BEA anyway, so carefully and expertly opened, recognizing the extreme importance of what lay inside, would have one believe that the very same approach would be taken by those who actually did the work here. One hopes so, anyway. From the BEA photographs in AF447 Reports, the actual memory-module case appears to be very thick steel; they withstood the pressures that exist in over 3000/4000m of water. The primary difference here would be the very high 'g' loads that the recorders would have experienced at impact.
This said, the memory cases do appear to be unscathed and the actual modules inside likely survived unharmed. The absence of even the minutest updates concerning this phase of the investigation is disappointing, this being uncharacteristic of most investigative bodies, recent exceptions known and acknowledged, and does not serve the transparency necessary to alleviate the felt need for speculation in the absence of data. Like some here who have flown these aircraft, I think there is a felt-need to know as much as possible, as this does not "read" like a terrorist event.
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Egyptian air accident investigation sources told Reuters news agency it would take "lots of time and effort" to fix the two damaged recorders.
Either a quote from somebody who is not directly involved who wants to appear knowledgeable, or a pessimistic statement to buy time. Either of which are not uncommon from these parts of the world.
It is feasible to have the data daisy chained and recorded by more than one recorder.
In a chaotic disintegration it improves the chance of survival.
One of the recorders could be designed to float, another built into the tail fin or other structures that tend to survive and easier to find like landing gear.
Latest generation of Solid state memory is incredibly light.
In a chaotic disintegration it improves the chance of survival.
One of the recorders could be designed to float, another built into the tail fin or other structures that tend to survive and easier to find like landing gear.
Latest generation of Solid state memory is incredibly light.
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The Egyptian technicians will have full access to the documented procedures and any specialist tools and no doubt the physical presence of persons with first hand experience building, opening and repairing the recorders.
Rwy_in_Sight;
In a word, yes. Egypt is member state of ICAO and ICAO Annex 13, (Chapter 7, para 7.4 in my copy, available at http://www.emsa.europa.eu/retro/Docs...s/annex_13.pdf), requires member states to issue an interim report within 30 days of an accident.
In a word, yes. Egypt is member state of ICAO and ICAO Annex 13, (Chapter 7, para 7.4 in my copy, available at http://www.emsa.europa.eu/retro/Docs...s/annex_13.pdf), requires member states to issue an interim report within 30 days of an accident.
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Official Egyptian update number 12
Cairo, 19th of June 2016 (12)
On Saturday the 18th of June; the investigation committee started the process of inspecting parts of both CVR and FDR, the approved representative of France and his consulting experts witnessed this process. Whereas approved Representative and consultants from the US as the engine manufacturer also joined the investigation committee. Memory units of both recorders were removed at the labs of the Central Department for Aircraft Investigation at the Ministry of Civil Aviation as a preparation to start the drying stage which was conducted at the Technical Research Center of the Armed Forces using modern high-Tech drying ovens. The drying stage took 8 consecutive hours and it was made in attendance of members of the investigation committee, and the adviser to the approved representative of France, who has a wide expertise in dealing with the plane recorders. Electrical tests of memory units of the recorders are in progress which will be followed by the data unloading phase. It is worth mentioning that John Lethbrige, the vessel contracted by the Egyptian Government to join the search for the plane wreckage, is proceeding its tasks of drawing a map of the wreckage distribution at the bottom of the Mediterranean.
On Saturday the 18th of June; the investigation committee started the process of inspecting parts of both CVR and FDR, the approved representative of France and his consulting experts witnessed this process. Whereas approved Representative and consultants from the US as the engine manufacturer also joined the investigation committee. Memory units of both recorders were removed at the labs of the Central Department for Aircraft Investigation at the Ministry of Civil Aviation as a preparation to start the drying stage which was conducted at the Technical Research Center of the Armed Forces using modern high-Tech drying ovens. The drying stage took 8 consecutive hours and it was made in attendance of members of the investigation committee, and the adviser to the approved representative of France, who has a wide expertise in dealing with the plane recorders. Electrical tests of memory units of the recorders are in progress which will be followed by the data unloading phase. It is worth mentioning that John Lethbrige, the vessel contracted by the Egyptian Government to join the search for the plane wreckage, is proceeding its tasks of drawing a map of the wreckage distribution at the bottom of the Mediterranean.
Last edited by A0283; 19th Jun 2016 at 23:12.
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Looking at several of the recent accidents, on land and in water, the FDRs always seem to be badly damaged, so to me, it does not appear that the current criteria and/or design works.
Doesnt this make an argument for a different design, or some sort of modification to these systems?
Doesnt this make an argument for a different design, or some sort of modification to these systems?
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Speculation: The Egyptians probably have the ability to plug their analysers into the base units of the DFDR and CVR, but not into the data capsules.
I really don't think there is anything wrong with the crash resistance. The base unit is not expected to be salvageable. It's not fire or crush resistant. It's just a handy interface for testing and downloading data after incidents (not fuselage destroying accidents).
I really don't think there is anything wrong with the crash resistance. The base unit is not expected to be salvageable. It's not fire or crush resistant. It's just a handy interface for testing and downloading data after incidents (not fuselage destroying accidents).
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Looking at several of the recent accidents, on land and in water, the FDRs always seem to be badly damaged, so to me, it does not appear that the current criteria and/or design works.
Doesnt this make an argument for a different design, or some sort of modification to these systems?
Doesnt this make an argument for a different design, or some sort of modification to these systems?
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Very hard to believe considering the photos of the state CSMU's
Either a quote from somebody who is not directly involved who wants to appear knowledgeable, or a pessimistic statement to buy time. Either of which are not uncommon from these parts of the world.
Either a quote from somebody who is not directly involved who wants to appear knowledgeable, or a pessimistic statement to buy time. Either of which are not uncommon from these parts of the world.
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MS804 follow up
http://www.civilaviation.gov.eg/News...s_22_6_16.html
Found the original thread closed, even though there's significant news from Egypt about the latest assessment of the memory units of the CVR/FDR.
Apparently, the Egyptian Civil Aviation authority has an issue with either CVR or FDR readout. Nothing that can't be fixed, just taking up a bit more time. Encouraging that BEA and NTSB are confirmed to overlook this process.
My main concern is about until when there'll be data/voice stored. If it will be until the moment the transponder data quit, there won't be data/voice following the departure from the recorded flightpath @ FL370 as recorded by Greek and British military, conveyed to Egypt and only recently acknowledged by Egyptian authorities.
But fingers crossed, the FDR/CVR data read out will give some crucial hints before the apparent energy black out took place.
Connected to this, it would be vital to know until when exactly really transponder data were sent/received, as this seems so far varying between the timing of receipt of the ACARS messages (last one 00:29Z) and between the cessation of transponder data, claimed in several instances from 0, to 5 up to 15 minutes afterwards.
One would expect the Egyptian authorities to address such issues in a first (formal) report expected within one month according to international rules. Perhaps I've missed something.
Found the original thread closed, even though there's significant news from Egypt about the latest assessment of the memory units of the CVR/FDR.
Apparently, the Egyptian Civil Aviation authority has an issue with either CVR or FDR readout. Nothing that can't be fixed, just taking up a bit more time. Encouraging that BEA and NTSB are confirmed to overlook this process.
My main concern is about until when there'll be data/voice stored. If it will be until the moment the transponder data quit, there won't be data/voice following the departure from the recorded flightpath @ FL370 as recorded by Greek and British military, conveyed to Egypt and only recently acknowledged by Egyptian authorities.
But fingers crossed, the FDR/CVR data read out will give some crucial hints before the apparent energy black out took place.
Connected to this, it would be vital to know until when exactly really transponder data were sent/received, as this seems so far varying between the timing of receipt of the ACARS messages (last one 00:29Z) and between the cessation of transponder data, claimed in several instances from 0, to 5 up to 15 minutes afterwards.
One would expect the Egyptian authorities to address such issues in a first (formal) report expected within one month according to international rules. Perhaps I've missed something.
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@D Bru
We are now in Day35, so past the ICAO 30 days limit, where you expect the Egyptians as lead investigator to indeed publish a first interim report.
Apart from that the Egyptians keep publishing these updates.
So in that respect not convenient to freeze the thread at this stage.
Last radar contact was officially stated to be 20 minutes past 02:26, so 02:46 local time.
We are now in Day35, so past the ICAO 30 days limit, where you expect the Egyptians as lead investigator to indeed publish a first interim report.
Apart from that the Egyptians keep publishing these updates.
So in that respect not convenient to freeze the thread at this stage.
Last radar contact was officially stated to be 20 minutes past 02:26, so 02:46 local time.
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@A0283
Thanks, much appreciated.
Yes, I was hinting at that also, one would expect an interim report within one month.
One of the main issues one expects from such official interim report is of course the source and timing of this last radar contact, secondary or primary, following the cessation of the A/C transponder.
Remember that the Greek defence ministers' claim is that the manoeuvres of MS804 (90° left, followed by 360° right, rapidly descending) took place between 02:27 and 02:29 local, while the so-called transponder data recorded by several flight tracking sites show a continued constant heading and altitude until about 02:30.
This is crucially linked to the length/duration of FDR and CVR afterwards and what those data could bring into the investigation in addition to what we know.
Of course we can't discount FDR/CVR readout related clues before the general electric failure, these may be very important of course, but it seems to me that the events afterwards are equally important, if not more.
Anyhow, this first interim report is going to be already very important. Pretty unique it's not yet there (public).
Yes, I was hinting at that also, one would expect an interim report within one month.
One of the main issues one expects from such official interim report is of course the source and timing of this last radar contact, secondary or primary, following the cessation of the A/C transponder.
Remember that the Greek defence ministers' claim is that the manoeuvres of MS804 (90° left, followed by 360° right, rapidly descending) took place between 02:27 and 02:29 local, while the so-called transponder data recorded by several flight tracking sites show a continued constant heading and altitude until about 02:30.
This is crucially linked to the length/duration of FDR and CVR afterwards and what those data could bring into the investigation in addition to what we know.
Of course we can't discount FDR/CVR readout related clues before the general electric failure, these may be very important of course, but it seems to me that the events afterwards are equally important, if not more.
Anyhow, this first interim report is going to be already very important. Pretty unique it's not yet there (public).
Last edited by D Bru; 22nd Jun 2016 at 23:37.
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expectations from the 30 days interim report
The interim report should also shed light on the so far claimed but contested contact of MS804 F/C with Egyptian ATC. I would suspect indeed to receive confirmation that this contact from MS804 didn't concern Egyptian ATC, but it would be interesting to learn whether in stead there was F/C initiated radio contact with Egypt Air Maintenance Control following the incident, and if so what was the gist/subject.