EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

[A0283]

One of the vessels in the area is probably the offshore vessel Burullus. Which is probably capable of handling a number of subsea equipments and has a heli deck and medium lift crane. Deck space is similar to what was used for the AirAsia A320 (the crane is in an offset position, so useable deckspace is less). Burullus has the word RESCUE written on the side. So it will have more than average rescue/recovery equipment on board. On one of the pictures of the ship there is an A-frame (U) on the starboard side ... picture is not sharp, but looks like a submersible vehicle under it.

Outside the search area ... It also appears there is a Saipem installation in the area ... do not have the specs of that though. And even one or more Fugro vessels in the area. So there is some potentially useful floating infrastructure about (but not involved (yet)). Have not read anything about this though.

Submarines certainly do not go that deep. In the search for MH370 it was mentioned once that a UK sub was used. Probably for pinger detection attempts.

Divers are of course not used either. But they will come in play during recoveries later, but only just before or during 'breaking the surface'.

This is getting a bit outside the interest of a pilot forum perhaps.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by A0283

This is getting a bit outside the interest of a pilot forum perhaps.

Well, it does have to do with finding a missing plane. That's a good thing.

[aerolearner]

M/V EDT Ares (based in Cyprus) has been used in multiple occurrences as a support vessel during wreckage recovery operations by Phoenix International.

It is now off Port Said, Egypt, which might be just a coincidence since it is quite close to her homeport.

[Coagie]

I imagine it's difficult to detect the 37.5 kHz ping with all the noise in the busy Mediterranean Sea. They might need to get so close to hear it, that they'd be able to see the black boxes anyway, knock on wood. Sounds like the debris is in such a concentrated area, that, even if the pingers aren't working, they'll find the CVR and FDR by methodically searching with deep water remote subs.

[takata]

News mess

Now, Greek DOD was allegedly wrong about radar tracking showing that the aircraft departed from altitude at FL370... say "head of Egyptair navigation services".

EgyptAir plane 'did not swerve' before crash - AJE News

Everything "leaked" so far is looking as reliable as usual...

[Coagie]

I suppose there would have been an ACARS message if a breaker tripped on the window heating circuit, but if wiring grounded out, it may have melted quick enoungh, where it un-grounded itself quick enough, where the current draw never got high enough to trip the breaker on such a high current circuit. Depending on the engineering, a breaker may not trip until the current draw is double or triple the normal current draw.

[ariagne]

bordering on the absurd: refuting facts four days after the fact to reinforce an official version of "reality". this is disheartening, to put it mildly... or to be expected, to be damning.

[Chronus]

Surprisingly few floating debris and fragmented human remains have been discovered in the space of time since the loss. Might not this suggest no in -flight break up. Comparing this scenario with Swissair Flight111, where the floating debris field was much greater in the immediate aftermath of the crash, brings into question whether there was a complete loss of control and if so then at what point. The left turn, descent and 360 degree turn, would appear to be more likely to have been under control.

[Water pilot]

In the ACARS stream we have three messages relating to the window deicing system, two that relate to smoke, leaving two that relate to other systems. In my career I saw lots of messed up computer transmissions, but these messages have a logical coherence. I'm not saying it is not possible that the messages are bogus, but there are a whole lot of ACARS messages possible for the computer to pick randomly from.

All of the messages make sense and point to some sort of fault either in the wiring at the business end of the right window deicing system (which has happened before) or in the inverter that supplies that power. If it is really 3kw @ 200 (205?) V then that is 16 amps of current wired next to a surface that flexes, vibrates, and drips water. Obviously it is extremely well engineered or this would happen all the time but past experience shows that there is a way to get to a smoky fire from this equipment.

There is not enough data of course for this to even be considered an explanation, but so far I have seen nothing that would falsifiy the scenario of a fire caused by a fault somewhere in the window deicing system. On the other hand, the lack of a warning about loss of cabin pressure when the ACARS system is otherwise still working does a fair bit to falsifiy the explosion scenario.

Of course, if one starts with the conclusion that it was terrorism you can always come up with some scenario to fit the data after the fact.

[oldoberon]

Do you know if they have access to the avionics bay?

[HeavyMetallist]

If nothing else, at least all this speculation about avionics bay fires/in-flight access might serve to give the "pilots must be prevented from turning off ADS-B/transponders/GPS" crowd on here pause for thought about how wise that step would be.

[klintE]

Originally Posted by oldoberon

Do you know if they have access to the avionics bay?

They have.
Maintain engineers get into Avionics Bay (or E/E Bay in Boeing stuff) through external doors (it's recommended).
Only reason for internal access is to make possible some reaction in emergency.
By the crew.

[paperHanger]

What's to burn?

All the imagery I have seen from the avionics bay shows little (if anything) flammable. All the electronic assemblies are in sealed aluminium boxes, neatly stacked on racks. The wiring will be the usual a/c grade used by Airbus, probably their "TKT" which has been used since 2006, you won't be getting that to burn very easily in a normal environent. There's a whole load of insulation material too, again, good luck on getting that to burn.

The sequence of events on ACARS looks highly similar to the MS677 incident ... from the window heat sensors, it even started in a similar place. Looking back and with the Egyptian habit of finding a "politically expedient" answer, it is at least possible the MS677 incident was not "just" an electrical problem/oxygen leak, but something else. Maybe this was their second run at it, and this time it went off in flight, not on the ground.

The first officer said there was a "bang" from the right side of his seat and he saw a 10cm "crack" appear in the side-wall adjacent to the oxygen mask. The cockpit-voice recorder captured a "pop" followed by a hissing noise, similar to the escape of pressurised gas, says the inquiry.
"I unfastened the seat-belt immediately and stood up very quickly," the first officer told investigators. "At the same time the captain left his seat quickly. The smoke and fire were spreading very quickly. After that, the captain ordered me to get out of the cockpit."
The captain attempted to extinguish the fire but said: "The fire bottle was completely depleted without any influence on the fire intensity."

OK, so different a/c type ... but, if it had been some sort of "device" rather than a fault, do you have confidence the Egyptian authorities would have fessed up?

[Coagie]

I think you can pull up some floorboards to access the Avionics Bay from inside the plane, but, since the Avionics Bay is typically accessed from outside, you'd probably need to familiarize yourself with how to access it, from inside, on your particular A320, before an emergency arises, as the year of manufacture and configuration may make a difference.

[Islay]

Originally Posted by Coagie

I think you can pull up some floorboards to access the Avionics Bay from inside the plane, but, since the Avionics Bay is typically accessed from outside, you'd probably need to familiarize yourself with how to access it, from inside, on your particular A320, before an emergency arises, as the year of manufacture and configuration may make a difference.

Coagie

The guys who have knowledge of the A320 would know the answer to this I.e flight crew or engineers. The same with any aircraft type. I'm sure the true professionals on here wouldn't discuss certain things. The supposed facts I've read on here recently, make me cringe,Incorrect voltages, warning messages from DV Windows being opened etc.

[JohanB]

Originally Posted by GarageYears

Lot's of ideas related to the FO's iPad catching fire and taking out the aircraft, so I thought it worth trying to find out how often iPads catch fire generally...

So, this isn't truly a scientific search, but try typing in "iPad battery fire" or "iPad fire" into Google and see what you get? Not very much at all, and certainly I couldn't find one video of an iPad catching fire without an external source or of the remains after a fire caused by the battery igniting.

I'm not saying it isn't possible but it just seems very, very, very unlikely, given it clearly is incredibly rare generally. As far as I can see an iPad fire seems about just as likely as the aircraft being hit by a falling satellite part, when it comes to probabilities.

I understand it is human nature to want to fit a solution to the puzzle pieces we have to date, but I am firmly of the believe that it's just too soon and we just don't have enough info for anything to be meaningful.

iPad Air EXPLODES leading to mobile phone shop evacuation | Daily Mail Online

[cosmiccomet]

There is not access to the avionics bay from the cockpit like there is in the DC-10.

[Almostfamous]

2006?

The wiring will be the usual a/c grade used by Airbus, probably their "TKT" which has been used since 2006, you won't be getting that to burn very easily in a normal environent. There's a whole load of insulation material too, again, good luck on getting that to burn.

This aircraft was manufactured in 2003.

[SysDude]

WSJ article on mis-handling of debris:

EgyptAir Crash: Safety Experts Voice Fears Over Flight 804 Evidence - WSJ

[Coagie]

Originally Posted by Islay

Coagie

The guys who have knowledge of the A320 would know the answer to this I.e flight crew or engineers. The same with any aircraft type. I'm sure the true professionals on here wouldn't discuss certain things. The supposed facts I've read on here recently, make me cringe,Incorrect voltages, warning messages from DV Windows being opened etc.

Isley,
The early models of the A320 had access to the Avionics Bay behind the cockpit, but it was not often used and became a forgotten about vestige in later models, so don't be so sure that your "professionals" are familiar with it.
My post was so whom it may concern might look for it on their particular aircraft in the off chance they need access to the Avionics Bay in flight. It may or may not be common knowledge, but it's certainly no secret, nor is the, up to, 200 volts on the window heater. There isn't anything "Area 51" about the A320.