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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Old 22nd May 2016, 06:32
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One A320 incident which may or may not have any bearing on this accident:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/safety-r...ing_Climb.html
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Old 22nd May 2016, 07:33
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Question to 'bus drivers out there:
Am I correct in observing that a simultaneous loss of transponder signal and ACARS(VHF3) is consistent with electrical power set to emergency under smoke condition ?
(incidentally same would remove power to CVR too)

Last edited by andrasz; 22nd May 2016 at 07:53.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 07:43
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I agree Macdo-
It may have already been said but night time would make the EEC especially difficult
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Old 22nd May 2016, 07:56
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Today's papers strongly suggest a fire in the avionics bay with a rapid shut down of all the system
They also suggest that the oxygen supply could have been breached further fuelling the fire while depriving crew of oxygen
Smoke was detected in the cockpit and toilet area
So really the question now is whether the fire was a result of an electrical fault or incendiary device fitted in the front portion of the aircraft
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:06
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I know it might go against the grain here but from:

EgyptAir flight MS804: smoke detected in 'multiple locations' before crash | World news | The Guardian



Shaker Kelada, the former head of Egypt’s plane crash investigations unit, cautioned against reading too much into the data. “Alone, it means nothing. It’s the last four seconds at the end of the transmission. If it’s an indication of anything it could be a followup to an explosion. It could also happen if someone smokes in the cockpit or the bathroom. But there was no warning in the cockpit.

“This could be the first indication of a bomb. Or it can be unrelated. Since we don’t have any further information we cannot tell anything.”
Similar has been said by the BEA overnight.....
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:07
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Forget the papers - they're filling space and checking on here every 5 minutes to steal ideas (the crazier the better as faras they are concerned)

Andrasz's summary above is correct - if there is anything else it's not in the public domain yet

I'd only quibble with " based on Greek MoD press statement made very soon after the accident, may not be verified and needs to be treated with suspicion."

I'd replace "suspicion" with "caution" - the Greeks have aboslutely no reason for bias/spin in this one. but in any accident you find initial impressions have to be verified in detail
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:11
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I've sometimes looked over at my First Officers Ipad plugged into the charger sitting just to the right of his chest and below the window and wondered how nasty it would get if the charging process went awry.
Do Egypt Air have iPads mounted in their aircraft?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:12
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Devil ACARS BASHING

Some of you don't like ACARS who told the AF447 drama in real time !
Patent ? Money ? Private conception of public science ?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:17
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Other video of recovered items on a hangar(?) floor show 2 items of interest.
A torn blue carpet,presumably from the aisle with apparent puncture marks and a very badly damaged white handbag.
I'm finding it difficult to visualise how such damage could be caused if these items were just ejected at altitude.
Could airflow effect alone cause such damage to the white handbag.
Hopefully the CVR be located soon to give some closure.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:20
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In case someone missed it, overnight Simon updated AHV with the following information:

Originally Posted by The Aviation Herald
On May 21st 2016 Airbus confirmed all ACARS messages above as authentic and explained the "ANTI ICE R WINDOW" message was triggered by the Window Heat Computer #2 as well as the related 2 maintenance messages corresponding to the temperature sensors of the 2 right cockpit windows. The two smoke messages were triggered by their respective optical detectors.
With this information, as well as others we know to be factual, it s possible to state several things that DID NOT HAPPEN:

- The ACARS messages indicate a development of events over a period of 3-4 minutes, while the aircraft remained straight and level. This is not consistent with any sudden catastrophic event, and the faults indicate that there was something wrong with aircraft systems, whatever led to the catastrophe was not initiated by human input only (ie. no hijack/suicide type scenario).
- The damage from recovered parts/objects so far confirm a high energy impact, which in turn indicates a structurally intact aircraft, suggesting that the descent began in a controlled manner with subsequent incapacitation or loss of control (uncontrolled descent from FL370 would lead to structural breakup, with individual parts subsequently slowed down by aerodynamic drag, the sea impact creating relatively little further damage). Thus there was no high level disintegration due to any bomb or mechanical failure.
- Loss of transponder and ACARS communications is consistent with a crew doing their avionics smoke checklist and switching to emergency power, shredding all non-essential load. This is also consistent with the descent having been initiated by a crew still in control.


@HH, right you are, word replaced.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:22
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I'm curious about the incendiary device, Pace. Is there any history of using such devices to bring down planes? Why would a terrorist organization go for an incendiary rather than a bomb with a more certain effect? Why would a terrorist organization want to leave any ambiguity about its role in the disaster?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:25
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Comcomtech I think there's a number of people on here, Pace included, who are confirmationally biased to push the terrorism angle even now when all evidence is indicating to the contrary.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:30
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Saw that damage to white hand bag and took me straight back to the picture of the rear bulkhead and door trim of the Russian a/c that was blown up .
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:36
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I'm curious about the incendiary device, Pace. Is there any history of using such devices to bring down planes? Why would a terrorist organization go for an incendiary rather than a bomb with a more certain effect? Why would a terrorist organization want to leave any ambiguity about its role in the disaster?
I think terrorism is looking less and less likely but a planted incendiary device cannot be ruled out.
There is a complete lack of terrorist claims so in all probability something went wrong where a fire started in the avionics bay or near there
Having experienced dense smoke at night in the cockpit of a business jet 12 years ago I really feel for those guys. Smoke of that type is acrid and awful to breath if they also had flames it would have been a nightmare.
Add rapid decompression and a possible failure of the oxygen system? A horrendous situation. My thoughts go to them and their PAX
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:45
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Smoke sensor for avionics is located inside extract duct which is common for both waste air from the avionics and cockpit panel.

https://plus.google.com/wm/1/+Aviati...ts/b4KGS4xNpDz

The smoke sensors in avionics and lavatories are optical that means they act in case of aerosol and/or solid particles in the air.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 08:46
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Given the current idea of fire, I am wondering if Framer might be raising a rather valid question. If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:02
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If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?
They should use hand extinguisher for the little LiON batery in case of their thermal runaway
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:03
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2EggOmellete
Given the current idea of fire, I am wondering if Framer might be raising a rather valid question. If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?
We have procedures in place and train for exactly such an event either in the cockpit or the cabin.

I thought it might worth re-posting this statement that I made earlier in this thread.

Above The Clouds
Just bear in mind that because you receive a "Lavatory Smoke Message" and an "Avionics Smoke Message" doesn't mean a fire started in either of these places.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:09
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Originally Posted by 2EggOmlette
If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?

The galley oven will be able to contain the fire:
https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/ppt/syst...FireTests.pptx
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Old 22nd May 2016, 09:12
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Originally Posted by roulishollandais
Some of you don't like ACARS who told the AF447 drama in real time !
Patent ? Money ? Private conception of public science ?
Not at all. ACARS is not designed as an accident investigation tool, but as an advance warning system for maintenance issues that may need to be dealt with by engineering on arrival. Because of this it has some inherent limitations in circumstances such as these. You say ACARS told the story of AF447 in real time. No - it told some of the story, didn't tell crucial parts of it (because it was not designed so to do - stall-inducing pilot control inputs, for example), and also reported incidents somewhat out of order of occurrence, and in bursts (again, quite "correctly" from its design and purpose).

Which leads to a question. How confident are we that the present ACARS reflects the actual timing of the events it was transmitting? Or that it will necessarily have transmitted prior events (perhaps decompression) before losing power? As I recall, much of the AF447 ACARS discussion focused on similar issues, until all (or most....) was eventually clarified by the FDR and CVR.
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