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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Old 2nd Jun 2016, 11:42
  #961 (permalink)  
 
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@DaveReidUK, Squawk_ident, wiggy
I'm sharing all your points : [edit: those "emergency landings" reported are probably plain wrong ; another newspaper is talking now about "spurious smoke detection" during previous flights before CDG, but everything is to be taken with extreme caution].

At least, we know that it's not something endorsed by JP Troadec as his comment was really cautious, if not sceptical, about what they reported. What is pissing me off is that other newspapers are "quoting" Troadec as being behind this story while he simply answered direct questions.

Last edited by takata; 2nd Jun 2016 at 12:04. Reason: clarification
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 12:15
  #962 (permalink)  
 
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Takata wrote
I'm sharing all your points : [edit: those "emergency landings" reported are probably plain wrong ; another newspaper is talking now about "spurious smoke detection" during previous flights before CDG, but everything is to be taken with extreme caution].

At least, we know that it's not something endorsed by JP Troadec as his comment was really cautious, if not sceptical, about what they reported. What is pissing me off is that other newspapers are "quoting" Troadec as being behind this story while he simply answered direct questions.
You are absolutely right.
Considering the first "ACARS leaks" that was published and was worldwide spread, it is rather strange and annoying that a media such as FR3 do not publish (a part of) its sources or documents, or at least elaborate more about. For those that are not very familiar with the French media, the "France 3" TV channel is a State-owned media that is supposed to be serious and reliable. Disturbing.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 12:42
  #963 (permalink)  
 
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"Emergency landings"

Can the remarkable sleuths who tracked down the ACARS report from the incident see if there are any ACARS for the aircraft over the two or three preceding days?
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 12:55
  #964 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by comcomtech View Post
Can the remarkable sleuths who tracked down the ACARS report from the incident see if there are any ACARS for the aircraft over the two or three preceding days?
I believe that the original screen shots showed more than a day of reports.
This was posted by Takata om May 20:


Notice that there the "Occurrence History" shows 7 engine starts and 1 smoke detection before the final flight.
I don't know if other reports, not present in the final flight, would also have been reported.

A post in another blog asserts that the "Occurrence History" shows occurrences in previous flight legs. So it would seem that the units are legs, not a fixed time period.

Last edited by .Scott; 2nd Jun 2016 at 13:20.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 14:24
  #965 (permalink)  
 
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Is there enough satellite data storage for every a/c to send back FDR/CVR data in live time?
Short answer, No Rat 5.

Accurate answer - satellites have virtually no storage compared to the data they relay. Storage typically occurs at ground stations or data banks networked to the downlink site. On a SATCOM equipped aircraft, the prime limitation is bandwidth which in satellite terms equals dramatically greater cost.

The space bird companies would surely build to accommodate any rea$onable demand.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 15:33
  #966 (permalink)  
 
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@Scott
Notice that there the "Occurrence History" shows 7 engine starts and 1 smoke detection before the final flight.
"02-ENG START" labelled ACARS is refering to the flight phase (06 is Cruise) ; those ACARS, like "FWC2: no data... ; QAR Media low..." are triggered only when such circumstance apply, but not each time an engine is started. It looks like the "occurence history" is covering a period of previous flights for each ACARS.

Flight Warning "SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE" appears to have been previously triggered once, but when was that? If each box, starting from the last one, was for a previous flight, I can count 15 boxes (including the last flight) and going backward, it would have been 8 flights before the last one.

On the other hand, I can't see any occurence history for "AVIONICS SMOKE" during the past 14 flights (if that's how it works). We can't say anything about "CARGO SMOKE" history, because it's not been triggered during the last sequence, neither about "AIR COND SMOKE" which is not triggering any ECAM warning.

Consequently, without any specific ACARS reports from those previous flights, this isn't going to be really helpful. I would only deduct that "SMOKE LAVATORY SMOKE" or "AVIONICS SMOKE" were probably NOT triggered during the previous 24h of operation.

Last edited by takata; 2nd Jun 2016 at 16:04. Reason: corrected numbers
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 15:34
  #967 (permalink)  
 
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FWIW, it occurs to me that a very low-cost, low-tech step might help to find aircraft downed at sea: a big package of dye rigged to spill on impact. A dye splotch visible from orbit would surely have helped in the case of MH370, for instance. It might even do some good marking a crash on land.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 16:16
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PersonFromPorlock's suggestion is one of the best ideas I have seen on this issue. The tendency today is for complex technical (read "expensive") solutions, that most often have their own serious drawbacks.

Regardless of what other mitigation or solutions come about in the next decade or so, PFP's idea should be give serious consideration as a relatively simple, relatively cheap mitigator to the problem of figuring out where an aircraft entered the ocean (even considering drift in the first 24 hours). It's not a solution to recovering the aircraft or the data, but it's certainly an idea worth consideration for faster pinpointing of a crash site. And I agree that it might even have helped in several past occurrences of aircraft missing over land.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 16:25
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@grizzled, PFP,
if it's a "big-package", meaning heavy or bulky, it's not going to be very "low-cost" in terms of so many aircraft operations.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 16:49
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takata...

Understood. Which is why I said "relatively' and "worth consideration"

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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 17:06
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A dye pack might be a bit smaller and lighter if it contained a buoyant carrier fluid impregnated with materials which were mildly radioactive. There are numerous airborne and orbital sensors which are extraordinarily proficient at seeing such things. I would worry that the horror and gnashing of teeth from the uninformed about thousands of airliners flying with such materials on board might torpedo the idea before it hit the water, but I believe that there are both safe and detectable materials which could be viable.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 17:11
  #972 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vapilot2004 View Post
Short answer, No Rat 5.

Accurate answer - satellites have virtually no storage compared to the data they relay. Storage typically occurs at ground stations or data banks networked to the downlink site. On a SATCOM equipped aircraft, the prime limitation is bandwidth which in satellite terms equals dramatically greater cost.

The space bird companies would surely build to accommodate any rea$onable demand.
Answering the wrong question.
As you say, the Satellites have no storage they are part of the virtual 'electric string' from the aircraft to a receiving system. The receiver systems have close to limitless storage in terms of DFDR/CVR. There would be no problem in saving several hours of data for every aircraft in the world. However, that is not the issue. The issue is available bandwidth for the transmissions through the satellites and who would pay for the usage of that bandwidth.

This is where schemes are developed for sending only when the aircraft knows it has a problem. However, that may mean not getting anything as the problem may kill the satellite link especially if the link requires a satellite tracking antenna. So a better scheme may be to record the data onto ejectable ELTs that would be able to transmit their location and also when they are found they contain the DFDR/CVR data that is required - solid state storage being close to indestructible and of significant capacity.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 17:26
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Originally Posted by Ian W View Post
This is where schemes are developed for sending only when the aircraft knows it has a problem. However, that may mean not getting anything as the problem may kill the satellite link especially if the link requires a satellite tracking antenna. So a better scheme may be to record the data onto ejectable ELTs that would be able to transmit their location and also when they are found they contain the DFDR/CVR data that is required - solid state storage being close to indestructible and of significant capacity.
How often do you need to service the flotation gear to make sure that if it's ever needed, it actually inflates and it floats?
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 18:23
  #974 (permalink)  
 
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oldoberon 17th march 2014 MH370

Saw this idea somewhere, water soluble bags of highly concentrated fluorescent dye in wings and cargo holds,. I liked it because they were passive, ie no batteries or activation needed

not going to happen is it

i also suggest 4 bags, one in each wing one in the nose area and one in the tail area, all different colours so if a break up occurred in the air you would know

Last edited by oldoberon; 2nd Jun 2016 at 18:36. Reason: to add last line
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 18:45
  #975 (permalink)  
 
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Tide Dye

Thinking back to the start of my military flying (a long time ago) I am sure we had a sachet of yellow dye in our life jackets which would deploy, along with shark repellent, if immersed in water
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 19:56
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is there enough satellite data storage for every a/c to send back FDR/CVR data in live time?
Short answer, No Rat 5.

My mistake. Not data storage, but data transmission. If every FDR/CVR equipped a/c and its operator was required to have the equipment fitted at manufacture then searching for tiny black boxes might be un-necessary as all the data would already be in the Ops room. If operators couldn't do it then a Google type aviation data collection company could do so. I agree, this 'only on board' data retention method is archaic and expensive when required.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 20:08
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Perhaps the bean counters out there could compare the cost of carrying large bags of dye (let's say bags equivalent in weight to two passengers?) vs the millions that have been spent looking for just AF447 and MH370. Maybe the numbers don't work - but it seems like they should. Or is it that the airlines would have to pay the cost for the dye, whereas the involved countries are picking up the search costs?

Also - IF it is true that the plane had produced various spurious ACARS messages in the days before it was lost, might that not indicate an intermittent fault in the wiring (perhaps a short) or in the computers?
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 20:08
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Originally Posted by takata View Post
@grizzled, PFP,
if it's a "big-package", meaning heavy or bulky, it's not going to be very "low-cost" in terms of so many aircraft operations.




Just dye the fuel.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 20:53
  #979 (permalink)  

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Orestes. A prime example of thinking outside the box. I like it.
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Old 2nd Jun 2016, 21:27
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ELT Design

Originally Posted by Ian W View Post
Answering the wrong question.


So a better scheme may be to record the data onto ejectable ELTs that would be able to transmit their location and also when they are found they contain the DFDR/CVR data that is required - solid state storage being close to indestructible and of significant capacity.


I published a design for better ELT's last year (see link). With SD cards with a capacity of 0.5 terabytes, it would be very practical to have each ELT carry the full CVR/FDR history, and a great deal more besides.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9x...w?pref=2&pli=1
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