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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

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EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Old 30th May 2016, 10:12
  #881 (permalink)  
 
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Why would you put three sets of pinger detectors on one ship? Given there is a clock running before the batteries in the pinger run out, would you not put three detectors on three boats and cover as much ground/sea as possible?
I wondered about that too.

My speculative guess is that one of them is to be suspended on a deep tow cable and a second one is to be deployed on an ROV. The third one may be a spare or perhaps is to be redeployed onto another vessel, such as the one which mobilised from Cyprus in a hurry, in the field.
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Old 30th May 2016, 11:57
  #882 (permalink)  
 
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Given there is a clock running before the batteries in the pinger run out, would you not put three detectors on three boats and cover as much ground/sea as possible?
What an archaic process.

We can track, target and precision bomb people in hiding but can't find a bloody airliner transmitting "here I am"!

The public think it's nuts.

Last edited by mickjoebill; 30th May 2016 at 16:32.
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Old 30th May 2016, 12:15
  #883 (permalink)  
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The public couldn't care less and the majority have already forgotten all about it.
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Old 30th May 2016, 13:16
  #884 (permalink)  
 
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For the amount of publicity under water search being a highly sophisticated, some of technology and techniques are old and crude.

If I recall correctly, ship with pinger locator actually drops a test ULB, so if multiple vessels does this, they will be chasing each others pings than the actual one. If they have too many pings in very close frequency it makes all the more difficult.

It is also a myth that navies have superior underwater technology. Oil companies and research organizations have latest technology.

30 day life period is based on the assumption ULB has been stored and maintained properly.
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:11
  #885 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by notapilot15 View Post
It is also a myth that navies have superior underwater technology. Oil companies and research organizations have latest technology.
A good point on specialized equipment for deep water work suited to this task.
30 day life period is based on the assumption ULB has been stored and maintained properly.
Let's hope they work better than ELT's, whose 'it works' rate could use some improvement.
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:17
  #886 (permalink)  
 
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I care

Originally Posted by ZFT View Post
The public couldn't care less and the majority have already forgotten all about it.
I am a member of the Public, and I DO care. And not just selfishly because of my fear of flying and a quest to know what happened. I care because anybody on that plane could have been my brother or sister, Mother or Father. Behind every person on that plane is a story, as to why they were travelling, what their intended destination was. They leave behind a multitude of inconsolable family and friends also searching for answers and some closure. So many of us do care and remember and empathise.

Last edited by Maddie; 30th May 2016 at 20:12.
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Old 30th May 2016, 15:46
  #887 (permalink)  
 
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Pattern is full, sadly MS804 is now at a phase where it is temporarily more of a nautical matter than aeronautical.
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Old 30th May 2016, 16:01
  #888 (permalink)  
 
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If I recall correctly, ship with pinger locator actually drops a test ULB
Yes, but it is good practice to deploy the beacon with a flotation collar and an acoustic release to recover the device when the calibration runs are completed. Else to recover the beacon with an ROV on a test dip.

The Party Chief is under immense and most insistent pressure from the client reps, eg the accident investigators and the interested partners such as the airline and the manufacturers, to get on with producing line kilometres and square kilometres of searched seabed. Those guys tend not to understand the importance of prelim work such as measuring the temperature/salinity profile of the water column and calibrating the signal strength characteristics of the hydrophone in the ambient conditions. They just want you to get on with the search. Therefore it is sometimes necessary, under protest, to skip the preliminaries and start knocking out the mileage to satisfy the men who are paying the dayrate.
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Old 30th May 2016, 19:46
  #889 (permalink)  
 
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LoneWolf50:
Let's hope they work better than ELT's, whose 'it works' rate could use some improvement.
It would be simple to modify ELT's in large commercial aircraft so they are triggered any time the descent rate exceeds X fpm for Y time period. It would be a tremendous help to have several minutes of ELT transmissions to alert the authorities and narrow down the search area.
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Old 30th May 2016, 22:43
  #890 (permalink)  
 
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Why would you put three sets of pinger detectors on one ship? Given there is a clock running before the batteries in the pinger run out, would you not put three detectors on three boats and cover as much ground/sea as possible?
You need at least 3 to triangulate the location, and pinpoint the location as quickly as possible. With a unit, you simply get direction. Relative strength is difficult to tell distance with thermoclines, etc.
With only one vessel, or one unit, it is very difficult to pinpoint the location. You have to drive, get a direction, then drive perpendicular to get direction, then parallel wide and combine the three to get a general location, if you have gone wide enough. Then start again to narrow down further...

You can deploy them from RHB from the mother ship, and these can usually get far enough away to triangulate, and narrow down an area.

This is in a perfect world. In reality, the currents, thermoclines, and salinity cause a signal to wander...
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Old 30th May 2016, 22:45
  #891 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ZFT View Post
As much as I sympathise with what you say, comments such as “the public deserves to know” or the public demands to know” or the “public think it’s nuts” are simply not true. Yes, some people genuinely have concerns over flying and accidents unfortunately bring out these (unfounded) fears but the average member of the public has already totally forgotten about this accident and goes about their normal lives.

There seems to be a ghoulish fascination about aircraft accidents when almost every man and his dog on this forum becomes an accident investigator or aircraft designer overnight dissecting every piece of miscommunication and misinformation and comes to totally unfounded conclusions based on 1 minutes Wikipedia research!
Professional pilots actually have not only a professional interest but also a need to know why an apparently serviceable aircraft in cruise with no inclement weather suddenly departed its cruise and crashed. They are in that position themselves and need to know what happened that led to the deaths of 2 of their number so that they can avoid the same fate. This is the major benefit of a forum like this. It is finding the DFDR/CVR of AF447 that has led to an increase in training in handling stalls, possibly preventing future similar accidents.

Unfortunately, bean counters and those not directly involved in aircraft operations do not see the same problem. Most times the DFDR and CVR have been found, so what does it matter? The same reason the ULB was given such a puny battery and a signalling protocol that was designed to be easy to implement rather than to aid recovery in deep sea scenarios. The cost of the last 3 or 4 under-sea searches would have equipped the world wide transoceanic fleet of aircraft with really advanced technology. But it does not come from the beancounters' budgets it comes from the tax payers of the countries involved; so 'shrug' who cares? The charges for searches for aircraft should be levied on the airline - or more specifically on its insurers. This would result almost immediately in retrofit of more suitable DFDR/CVR location systems or streaming of their data in emergency.
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Old 31st May 2016, 09:56
  #892 (permalink)  
 
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Aerosat

Back in the days when I worked there was a proposed satellite prograrm
'Aerosat', concerned with monitoring and communicating with aircraft
over the water. It got quite a long way before being cancelled around 1978.
No one would pay to use it. Might have helped with the problem of aircraft
falling in the sea.
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Old 31st May 2016, 10:14
  #893 (permalink)  
 
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Iridium Next satellite constellation will be carrying a system call AIREON which is intended to track all aircraft ADS-B transmissions worldwide including the poles. INMARSAT will handle tracking data 'free' of charge, but of course you have to be carrying the INMARSAT SATCOM equipment.
Neither approach will give any assistance to finding aircraft that switch off their ACARS, transponders and ADS as in MH370, nor give any support to DFDR/CVR data recovery from aircraft that crash in deep ocean waters. As usual the attendees at ICAO are not systems analysts determining the functions that are required, they are more conference attendees trying to get an agreement so that it can be said they 'did something'.
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:11
  #894 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by notapilot15 View Post
It is also a myth that navies have superior underwater technology. Oil companies and research organizations have latest technology.
I would say they have different technologies. But the commercial technology may be more useful in this case. US Navy submarines have significant sonar ability - but they probably don't go down far enough to get a good reading on a pinger 10,000 feet below the surface.
Here's the frame of the sonar detector that you'd find in the nose of a US Navy sub:
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:32
  #895 (permalink)  
 
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Quote:
The charges for searches for aircraft should be levied on the airline - or more specifically on its insurers. This would result almost immediately in retrofit of more suitable DFDR/CVR location systems or streaming of their data in emergency. unquote
quote:
Absolutely. It's a shame that when it comes down to the nitty-gritty in these (and most) things, it's the beancounters requirements that come first. unquote

I am not quite sure how that would work. Large airlines would no doubt pay; operators with one or two aircraft would find it hard to do so. If the underwriters are to do the paying, then we must first identify them, then send them the bill, then persuade them to pay it, when they have just paid out for a hull loss.
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Old 31st May 2016, 11:36
  #896 (permalink)  
 
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For what its worth, news releases from the Egyptian State News Agency can be found at this link:
http://www.sis.gov.eg/en/
Type "egyptair" into the search box and click the magnifying glass.
Here's the most recent one:
An equipment shipment arrived on Sunday 29/5/2016 at Cairo International Airport from several European countries to help find the two black boxes of the EgyptAir plane that crashed into the Mediterranean on May 19.

The Civil Aviation Ministry said that it is difficult to find the two black boxes before two weeks as the batteries of the two boxes cannot send or receive any signal.

A specialized ship would be sent to the crash site if the imported equipment failed to find the two black boxes.
Many MS804 news agency articles are based on this source.
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Old 31st May 2016, 12:06
  #897 (permalink)  
 
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Ministry of Aviation

Many MS804 news agency articles are based on this source.
I would rather use Egypt Ministry of Aviation site here:
http://www.civilaviation.gov.eg/

It's last report was N°4, dated 28 May:
(there is an English translation, scrolling down the page)

القاهرة في 28 مايو 2016
ورد الى لجنة التحقيق تقارير الاقمار الصناعية والتى تفيد بتلقى إشارة استغاثة إلكترونية صادرة عن جهاز ELT ( وهو جهاز وظيفته إرسال إشارات أتوماتيكية إلى الأقمار الصناعية حال حدوث إصطدام أو سقوط بالماء ) وقد تم ابلاغ جهات البحث المختصة عن الإحداثيات التى رصدتها الأقمار الصناعية لتكثيف البحث بتلك المنطقة .
وفى إطار جهود البحث عن صندوقى المعلومات الخاصين بالطائرة ، تم الاستعانة بأحدث الأجهزة فى هذا المجال كان أولها من شركة السيمار (Alseamar ) وقدم تم استقدامها على متن السفينة الفرنسية ، كما سيتم الاستعانة بأجهزة أخرى ذات قدرة عالية على التقاط الاشارات والمسح السونارى، والتى قامت وزارة الطيران المدنى بالاتفاق عليها مع شوكة DOS (DEEP OCEAN SEARCH) وذلك لتنويع طرق البحث وانجازها فى اقصر وقت ممكن.
ومن ناحية أخرى تلقت لجنة التحقيق المعلومات الخاصة بالمراقبة الجوية اليونانية وبدأت فى دراستها ولازالت اللجنة فى انتظار المزيد من المعلومات المتعلقة بتسجيلات اجهزة الرادار التى تمكنت من متابعة مسار الطائرة قبل الحادث .




CAIRO - 28 May 2016
Investigation Progress Report (4) by the Egyptian Aircraft Accident Investigation Committee

The investigation committee received satellite reports of the electronic emergency signal that came out of the Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT); which is equipment that sends automatic signals to satellite in the event of a crash or fall into water. Concerned search units were then informed of the updates recorded by the satellite to intensify searching in that area.
Efforts to search for the data recorders of the A320 continues; including the use of the most advanced search equipment of Alseamar company that was brought aboard the French vessel. The Ministry of Civil aviation has also made agreement with DOS (DEEP OCEAN SEARCH) company for other equipment with high capacity to receive signals and conduct sonar scan, in order to diversify research methods and to carry them out in the shortest time possible.
On the other hand, the investigation committee has started studying the information received from the Greek air traffic control about the accident; more information of the records of the radar that had followed the path of the plane before the accident, is expected to be also received.
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Old 31st May 2016, 15:26
  #898 (permalink)  
 
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It's back!

PMS Burullus is back on the AIS map....

AIS Vessel Tracking - AIS Positions Maps | AIS Marine Traffic
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Old 31st May 2016, 19:41
  #899 (permalink)  
 
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Unlikely, the fixed ELT is designed to trigger due high G forces of a crash. It doesn't continue to transmit under water!

Other Mobile ELTs can be triggered by someone manually in a controlled ditching scenario, but again unlikely in this case.

So the ELT transmission received must have been during impact and the data captured by satellite at the time.
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Old 31st May 2016, 19:47
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How many nanoseconds worth of tx would that be.
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