Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

EgyptAir 804 disappears from radar Paris-Cairo

Old 22nd May 2016, 07:32
  #501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where it is comfortable...
Age: 55
Posts: 685
One A320 incident which may or may not have any bearing on this accident:

http://www.smartcockpit.com/safety-r...ing_Climb.html
andrasz is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 08:33
  #502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where it is comfortable...
Age: 55
Posts: 685
Question to 'bus drivers out there:
Am I correct in observing that a simultaneous loss of transponder signal and ACARS(VHF3) is consistent with electrical power set to emergency under smoke condition ?
(incidentally same would remove power to CVR too)

Last edited by andrasz; 22nd May 2016 at 08:53.
andrasz is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 08:43
  #503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: united kingdom
Posts: 173
I agree Macdo-
It may have already been said but night time would make the EEC especially difficult
king surf is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 08:56
  #504 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 6,000
Today's papers strongly suggest a fire in the avionics bay with a rapid shut down of all the system
They also suggest that the oxygen supply could have been breached further fuelling the fire while depriving crew of oxygen
Smoke was detected in the cockpit and toilet area
So really the question now is whether the fire was a result of an electrical fault or incendiary device fitted in the front portion of the aircraft
Pace is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:06
  #505 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,390
I know it might go against the grain here but from:

EgyptAir flight MS804: smoke detected in 'multiple locations' before crash | World news | The Guardian



Shaker Kelada, the former head of Egypt’s plane crash investigations unit, cautioned against reading too much into the data. “Alone, it means nothing. It’s the last four seconds at the end of the transmission. If it’s an indication of anything it could be a followup to an explosion. It could also happen if someone smokes in the cockpit or the bathroom. But there was no warning in the cockpit.

“This could be the first indication of a bomb. Or it can be unrelated. Since we don’t have any further information we cannot tell anything.”
Similar has been said by the BEA overnight.....
wiggy is online now  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:07
  #506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,085
Forget the papers - they're filling space and checking on here every 5 minutes to steal ideas (the crazier the better as faras they are concerned)

Andrasz's summary above is correct - if there is anything else it's not in the public domain yet

I'd only quibble with " based on Greek MoD press statement made very soon after the accident, may not be verified and needs to be treated with suspicion."

I'd replace "suspicion" with "caution" - the Greeks have aboslutely no reason for bias/spin in this one. but in any accident you find initial impressions have to be verified in detail
Heathrow Harry is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:11
  #507 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: 41S174E
Age: 52
Posts: 2,767
I've sometimes looked over at my First Officers Ipad plugged into the charger sitting just to the right of his chest and below the window and wondered how nasty it would get if the charging process went awry.
Do Egypt Air have iPads mounted in their aircraft?
framer is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:12
  #508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: france
Posts: 756
Devil ACARS BASHING

Some of you don't like ACARS who told the AF447 drama in real time !
Patent ? Money ? Private conception of public science ?
roulishollandais is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:17
  #509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: EGKK
Age: 57
Posts: 65
Other video of recovered items on a hangar(?) floor show 2 items of interest.
A torn blue carpet,presumably from the aisle with apparent puncture marks and a very badly damaged white handbag.
I'm finding it difficult to visualise how such damage could be caused if these items were just ejected at altitude.
Could airflow effect alone cause such damage to the white handbag.
Hopefully the CVR be located soon to give some closure.
Flap 80 is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:20
  #510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where it is comfortable...
Age: 55
Posts: 685
In case someone missed it, overnight Simon updated AHV with the following information:

Originally Posted by The Aviation Herald
On May 21st 2016 Airbus confirmed all ACARS messages above as authentic and explained the "ANTI ICE R WINDOW" message was triggered by the Window Heat Computer #2 as well as the related 2 maintenance messages corresponding to the temperature sensors of the 2 right cockpit windows. The two smoke messages were triggered by their respective optical detectors.
With this information, as well as others we know to be factual, it s possible to state several things that DID NOT HAPPEN:

- The ACARS messages indicate a development of events over a period of 3-4 minutes, while the aircraft remained straight and level. This is not consistent with any sudden catastrophic event, and the faults indicate that there was something wrong with aircraft systems, whatever led to the catastrophe was not initiated by human input only (ie. no hijack/suicide type scenario).
- The damage from recovered parts/objects so far confirm a high energy impact, which in turn indicates a structurally intact aircraft, suggesting that the descent began in a controlled manner with subsequent incapacitation or loss of control (uncontrolled descent from FL370 would lead to structural breakup, with individual parts subsequently slowed down by aerodynamic drag, the sea impact creating relatively little further damage). Thus there was no high level disintegration due to any bomb or mechanical failure.
- Loss of transponder and ACARS communications is consistent with a crew doing their avionics smoke checklist and switching to emergency power, shredding all non-essential load. This is also consistent with the descent having been initiated by a crew still in control.


@HH, right you are, word replaced.
andrasz is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:22
  #511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Montreal
Posts: 9
I'm curious about the incendiary device, Pace. Is there any history of using such devices to bring down planes? Why would a terrorist organization go for an incendiary rather than a bomb with a more certain effect? Why would a terrorist organization want to leave any ambiguity about its role in the disaster?
comcomtech is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:25
  #512 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
Comcomtech I think there's a number of people on here, Pace included, who are confirmationally biased to push the terrorism angle even now when all evidence is indicating to the contrary.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:30
  #513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Eagles Nest
Posts: 430
Saw that damage to white hand bag and took me straight back to the picture of the rear bulkhead and door trim of the Russian a/c that was blown up .
Toruk Macto is online now  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:36
  #514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 6,000
I'm curious about the incendiary device, Pace. Is there any history of using such devices to bring down planes? Why would a terrorist organization go for an incendiary rather than a bomb with a more certain effect? Why would a terrorist organization want to leave any ambiguity about its role in the disaster?
I think terrorism is looking less and less likely but a planted incendiary device cannot be ruled out.
There is a complete lack of terrorist claims so in all probability something went wrong where a fire started in the avionics bay or near there
Having experienced dense smoke at night in the cockpit of a business jet 12 years ago I really feel for those guys. Smoke of that type is acrid and awful to breath if they also had flames it would have been a nightmare.
Add rapid decompression and a possible failure of the oxygen system? A horrendous situation. My thoughts go to them and their PAX
Pace is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:45
  #515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 185
Smoke sensor for avionics is located inside extract duct which is common for both waste air from the avionics and cockpit panel.

https://plus.google.com/wm/1/+Aviati...ts/b4KGS4xNpDz

The smoke sensors in avionics and lavatories are optical that means they act in case of aerosol and/or solid particles in the air.
Karel_x is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 09:46
  #516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Aggregating some marginal gains.
Age: 41
Posts: 109
Given the current idea of fire, I am wondering if Framer might be raising a rather valid question. If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?
2EggOmelette is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 10:02
  #517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Czech Republic
Posts: 185
If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?
They should use hand extinguisher for the little LiON batery in case of their thermal runaway
Karel_x is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 10:03
  #518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: In an ever changing place
Posts: 1,038
2EggOmellete
Given the current idea of fire, I am wondering if Framer might be raising a rather valid question. If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?
We have procedures in place and train for exactly such an event either in the cockpit or the cabin.

I thought it might worth re-posting this statement that I made earlier in this thread.

Above The Clouds
Just bear in mind that because you receive a "Lavatory Smoke Message" and an "Avionics Smoke Message" doesn't mean a fire started in either of these places.
Above The Clouds is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 10:09
  #519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Where it is comfortable...
Age: 55
Posts: 685
Originally Posted by 2EggOmlette
If an Ipad battery went berserk in the cockpit, what would the crew be able to do?

The galley oven will be able to contain the fire:
https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/ppt/syst...FireTests.pptx
andrasz is offline  
Old 22nd May 2016, 10:12
  #520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: New York / Southern France
Age: 65
Posts: 95
Originally Posted by roulishollandais View Post
Some of you don't like ACARS who told the AF447 drama in real time !
Patent ? Money ? Private conception of public science ?
Not at all. ACARS is not designed as an accident investigation tool, but as an advance warning system for maintenance issues that may need to be dealt with by engineering on arrival. Because of this it has some inherent limitations in circumstances such as these. You say ACARS told the story of AF447 in real time. No - it told some of the story, didn't tell crucial parts of it (because it was not designed so to do - stall-inducing pilot control inputs, for example), and also reported incidents somewhat out of order of occurrence, and in bursts (again, quite "correctly" from its design and purpose).

Which leads to a question. How confident are we that the present ACARS reflects the actual timing of the events it was transmitting? Or that it will necessarily have transmitted prior events (perhaps decompression) before losing power? As I recall, much of the AF447 ACARS discussion focused on similar issues, until all (or most....) was eventually clarified by the FDR and CVR.
AGBagb is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.