Diversion - Did Manchester Shrink in the Rain?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: BHX
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Diversion - Did Manchester Shrink in the Rain?
Strange situation if true, seems like a case of "the computer says no."
26 March 2016
"Emirates A380 A6-EOP operating EK19 Dubai – Manchester diverted via London Heathrow this evening after going around three times at Manchester when the Flight Management System repeatedly warned that Manchester’s runways were too short to attempt to land on."
Emirates A380 A6-EOP EK19 London Heathrow Diversion. | Emirates News
26 March 2016
"Emirates A380 A6-EOP operating EK19 Dubai – Manchester diverted via London Heathrow this evening after going around three times at Manchester when the Flight Management System repeatedly warned that Manchester’s runways were too short to attempt to land on."
Emirates A380 A6-EOP EK19 London Heathrow Diversion. | Emirates News
Watching a televised snooker tournament held in Manchester yesterday (mid-afternoon) the deafening click of the balls was drowned out by the sound of torrential rain hammering on the roof of the venue. Even for Manchester it sounded - and was remarked upon by the snooker whisperers - as if it was exceptionally heavy.
What is the A380's stopping performance?
A330 stops on a sixpence.
A330 stops on a sixpence.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: England
Posts: 1,008
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Incident: Emirates A388 at Manchester on Mar 26th 2016, FMS decides runways too short
better link.
Sounds like a glitch more than anything? Surely 10,000ft is enough
better link.
Sounds like a glitch more than anything? Surely 10,000ft is enough
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's plenty long enough - having landed 380s there many times myself on 23R and 05L in heavy rain; however with the BTV ROW/ROP system you may get a "runway too short" warning. Trouble is, even if it is a glitch in the system a Go Around is mandatory, and so on until diversion follows!!!
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Dubai - sand land.
Age: 55
Posts: 2,831
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No. There is no performance section in the QRH...
I know it will stop on that runway. My colleagues know it will stop on that runway... Management will issue a Warning if a 'Too short' warning is ignored... It's all a Frying Pan V Fire kind of thing; however, once the Pan call is made after diversion is made and fuel potentially tight then an approach to land can be continued even if the 'glitch' reoccurs...
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Escaped the sandpit 53° 32′ 9.19″ N, 9° 50′ 13.29″ E
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let me get this straight. You are pilot on an A380. In a real airline that usually means you have seen the world, you have experience, you are well trained, and you possess some airmanship and decision making skills.
Now you approach a runway and the box says the runway is too short. You go around, better safe than sorry. Fair enough.
You then trouble shoot, you make your factored landing distance calculation (again), you find out that all is fine, it also matches your experience with regard to necessary landing distance, you make another approach, you are stable, you are on profile and on speed, all deceleration systems are working, and because the stupid box still says it is too short, you go around again and divert? WTF?
Where have we arived in our industry when such pilots fly a flagship? WTF?
Now you approach a runway and the box says the runway is too short. You go around, better safe than sorry. Fair enough.
You then trouble shoot, you make your factored landing distance calculation (again), you find out that all is fine, it also matches your experience with regard to necessary landing distance, you make another approach, you are stable, you are on profile and on speed, all deceleration systems are working, and because the stupid box still says it is too short, you go around again and divert? WTF?
Where have we arived in our industry when such pilots fly a flagship? WTF?
Very sad our industry has gone in this direction with no allowance for airmanship,we seem to be encouraged just to blindly follow SOP's.
Well done EK crew for following your SOP.
Well done EK crew for following your SOP.
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Escaped the sandpit 53° 32′ 9.19″ N, 9° 50′ 13.29″ E
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a normal day in the office of a ME airline where airmanship has been replaced with fear and micromanagement of their flights.
It ranks right up there with some Asian airlines who can't fly visual approaches because they are not allowed to. So they crash trying to do the impossible.
What if something happened, indeed.
Fuel cost, on the other hand, seem not to be an issue. Three approaches then a diversion to LHR?
How much fuel do you take? Two hour holding+ ?
How much lighter would they have been with a normal fuel load?
It ranks right up there with some Asian airlines who can't fly visual approaches because they are not allowed to. So they crash trying to do the impossible.
What if something happened, indeed.
Fuel cost, on the other hand, seem not to be an issue. Three approaches then a diversion to LHR?
How much fuel do you take? Two hour holding+ ?
How much lighter would they have been with a normal fuel load?
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Escaped the sandpit 53° 32′ 9.19″ N, 9° 50′ 13.29″ E
Posts: 591
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ManaAdaSystem Why should that Skipper start and fight against the windmills? I know that the wale will stop on that runway, my former colleagues know it but is it worth to play Don Quixote and fight against the windmills? Most likely not..... So follow the SOPS and fight against the windmills when it is worth to do it...
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: In the CRC
Age: 49
Posts: 95
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I really don't see an issue here - EK own the aircraft (or are financially responsible for it), and if they don't want you to land with a certain problem then that's their choice. As a Captain, if their choice was unsafe then you exert your authority - If their choice is safe, then go with it. It has nothing to do with whether you think the company is right or not - it's their train set. Your role is to ensure the aircraft, crew and passengers are safe - everything else is just window dressing.
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Kerry Eire
Age: 76
Posts: 609
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If Emirates' SOP is for the crew to slavishly follow the computers come what may then they go on my no fly list. Airmanship should be #1 and airlines should train crew to fly the aircraft when the boxes can't or won't, make reasonable judgements based on circumstance and foster an environment where crews are known to be competant and trustworthy. Fly Dubai joined the list last week now Emirates....same culture, linked management.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So follow the SOPS and fight against the windmills when it is worth to do it...
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Qwerty
Posts: 380
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The machine says no but you have all ready done your landing performance and you also know that the runway is long enough from previous experience.
OK, go around, perhaps you have made a mistake but surley just run another set of landing performance on the EFB. Still not sure then ACARS the company and make sure you have not missed something and get them to check your perf calc.
But to fly round the hold for a while, try another couple of approaches then divert to come back 4 hours later to land on the same runway. That just seems like crazy SOP's to me.
If I ever become a real pilot perhaps I will work for an airline that is happy to just chuck money and customer goodwill away. For the time being I will concentrate on getting our customers to the correct destination on time.
OK, go around, perhaps you have made a mistake but surley just run another set of landing performance on the EFB. Still not sure then ACARS the company and make sure you have not missed something and get them to check your perf calc.
But to fly round the hold for a while, try another couple of approaches then divert to come back 4 hours later to land on the same runway. That just seems like crazy SOP's to me.
If I ever become a real pilot perhaps I will work for an airline that is happy to just chuck money and customer goodwill away. For the time being I will concentrate on getting our customers to the correct destination on time.