Strife at BAC
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Strife at BAC
Rumour has it that trouble is brewing at BAC Express, the staff are on a pay freeze, no bonus is likely for the staff this year but apparantly bosses are in for a big bonus themselves. This along with a Captain on FO's wages, some Captains doing their own deals with managment, and pilots expected to operate from two bases after the summer along with a shortage of staff. Things could be turning sour.
Could someone confirm any of this.
I also understand employees are expected to pay for their own type ratings.
Balpa could be busy this year!
Could someone confirm any of this.
I also understand employees are expected to pay for their own type ratings.
Balpa could be busy this year!
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I see that that BAC are offering jobs for f27 rated pilots in glasgow and edinburgh, aswell as type ratings on the aircraft with a job at the end.
I think you have to pay for the rating though,sounds like a company that's about to take the money and run..
Any thoughts?
I think you have to pay for the rating though,sounds like a company that's about to take the money and run..
Any thoughts?
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I dont wish to hijack the thread here chaps gut G-OOFY has raised a question in his text, probably without realising it!
Now, this concern has reared it's head before and now begs the question, will one day all / majority of airlines resort to making pilots pay for their own type courses?
The constraints being put on airline management to reduce the operating costs coupled with the shortage of employment since the downsize post last Sept, must set the the big guns into thinking that they can reduce costs dramatically by; Letting people prove that they want to work for us, effectively geting the cream of the crop for the cheapest price.
Very interesting if I may say so myself!
I also understand employees are expected to pay for their own type ratings.
The constraints being put on airline management to reduce the operating costs coupled with the shortage of employment since the downsize post last Sept, must set the the big guns into thinking that they can reduce costs dramatically by; Letting people prove that they want to work for us, effectively geting the cream of the crop for the cheapest price.
Very interesting if I may say so myself!
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Companies will try to get pilot applicants to pay for their own type ratings (and anything else) as long as the ruse is successful. We all know that many persons entering at the bottom of the commercial aviation ladder are willing to b*** o*** and do anything to get that entry level job. You have to have some sympathy for this attitude, after all we were all at the bottom of the ladder once and needed that first "break" into the system.
The problem arises when their actions devalue the jobs higher up the ladder. After all, what is the point of putting up with misery in your entry level job when all you succeed in doing is to destroy the jobs you were aspiring to. If a company can get a cheap pilot, someone willing to pay their own training, all you will see will be a string of "alter ego" airlines with each sequential pilot grouping paying a larger and larger share of their hiring costs.
Companies will only insist on pilots paying their own costs while pilot supply is high in relation to demand and there are enough desparate pilot applicants willing to go along with the idea.
The problem arises when their actions devalue the jobs higher up the ladder. After all, what is the point of putting up with misery in your entry level job when all you succeed in doing is to destroy the jobs you were aspiring to. If a company can get a cheap pilot, someone willing to pay their own training, all you will see will be a string of "alter ego" airlines with each sequential pilot grouping paying a larger and larger share of their hiring costs.
Companies will only insist on pilots paying their own costs while pilot supply is high in relation to demand and there are enough desparate pilot applicants willing to go along with the idea.
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It is all to do with the laws of supply and demand. While there are surplus pilots looking for jobs then some employers will ask for this sort of thing. Once the supply of new pilots dries up (and it may not while the property market continues to go crazy), employers will become more reasonable in their demands - as reasonable as necessary to get the new, cheap pilots they require. Only when the young, flushed with the enthusiasm of youth, percieve that this job is no longer glamorous and well paid will we see the adverts getting larger and the employers shouting louder as to what a wonderful job flying a passenger aeroplane is! The adverts we see in the back of Flight carrying a picture of a B747 and four rings on a sleeve will no longer be appended to the name of a flight training organisation, but an airline!
We live in hope!
(How many older readers wanted to be a (steam) engine driver when they were young?)
We live in hope!
(How many older readers wanted to be a (steam) engine driver when they were young?)
Last edited by P.Pilcher; 27th Jun 2002 at 07:57.
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BAC deal is £9,500+VAT for rating, if you pass the course you get the job, pre screening interviews before the course though.
Compare cost of this with a 737 rating at £15k....
Compare cost of this with a 737 rating at £15k....
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I understand the possible vacancies are for F27 - I believe they charge around £12k for the rating training - add accomm., travel, etc and you are likely to pay out more like £13k - nearly same as B737 and only three F27 Operators in whole of Europe!?
Also, latest development G-OOFY referred to is getting crew to be based at EDI AND GLA - That's what GO and Easyjet tried, I understand and it got 'binned', I believe - no wonder - you try that drive at strange times - and where do you live? Cost, fatigue and funny rules about stand-by within one hour of 'Base' give rise to interesting questions. I suppose you park up half-way along the M-Way for 10 hours, or so, to see if you are operating all night after all? Should get interesting to see how that ends up
Also, latest development G-OOFY referred to is getting crew to be based at EDI AND GLA - That's what GO and Easyjet tried, I understand and it got 'binned', I believe - no wonder - you try that drive at strange times - and where do you live? Cost, fatigue and funny rules about stand-by within one hour of 'Base' give rise to interesting questions. I suppose you park up half-way along the M-Way for 10 hours, or so, to see if you are operating all night after all? Should get interesting to see how that ends up
I have been in this game for over 40 years.
Do not ever, ever, ever go to work for an employer who requires you to pay for your training/type rating.
You will not be doing yourself a favour whatever you may think.
Such employers are simply not worth working for. A good employer will hire you for who and what you are and then train you properly.
You might have to sign a bond which disappears over 3 years or so. I don't like bonds either but I have seen many selfish pilots try to break theirs (with no success) and they have ruined it for dozens of other good aspirants.
Do not ever, ever, ever go to work for an employer who requires you to pay for your training/type rating.
You will not be doing yourself a favour whatever you may think.
Such employers are simply not worth working for. A good employer will hire you for who and what you are and then train you properly.
You might have to sign a bond which disappears over 3 years or so. I don't like bonds either but I have seen many selfish pilots try to break theirs (with no success) and they have ruined it for dozens of other good aspirants.
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Thank you JW 411. In that case we will all sit back & enjoy our dole cheques and wait for a miracle to happen.
Times are hard, companies are struggling to remain in business and you advocate - nothing! Many of us want to continue our careers, look after our families and WORK. Please get a life.
Times are hard, companies are struggling to remain in business and you advocate - nothing! Many of us want to continue our careers, look after our families and WORK. Please get a life.
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Pedroalpha you are right the best way to look after your family is to add another 15k of debt on your remaining debts, JW411 is right no airline is worth working for if they insist on you paying for your training, I know it's tough I have been there myself but you just have to stick at it one day you will get your lucky break.
Anyway when a airline bonds you for 3 or 4 years you are in a way paying for your type rating because if you leave before your bond expires you have to pay the remaining cost for the type rating, but taking out another 15k on a type rating is not worth it because when you get your pay cheque at the end of every month you will find that there is not much left after you pay back the monthly payments on your 15k loan as well as the one you took out to complete your cpl training and don't forget your living expenses, you will be worse off financially for a long time.
The market will improve.
Anyway when a airline bonds you for 3 or 4 years you are in a way paying for your type rating because if you leave before your bond expires you have to pay the remaining cost for the type rating, but taking out another 15k on a type rating is not worth it because when you get your pay cheque at the end of every month you will find that there is not much left after you pay back the monthly payments on your 15k loan as well as the one you took out to complete your cpl training and don't forget your living expenses, you will be worse off financially for a long time.
The market will improve.
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Pedroalpha… Well-said mate.
Skylord757… you’ve hit the nail on the head, whether you go to Ryan, Astraeus, BAC or are bonded you end up paying for your training one way or another.
JW 411… WAKE UP times change; personally I would prefer to pay up front and not have a bond, Oh and I think I’m right in saying that we still live in a democratic society and so we each have the option to make are own minds up…
Skylord757… you’ve hit the nail on the head, whether you go to Ryan, Astraeus, BAC or are bonded you end up paying for your training one way or another.
JW 411… WAKE UP times change; personally I would prefer to pay up front and not have a bond, Oh and I think I’m right in saying that we still live in a democratic society and so we each have the option to make are own minds up…
pedroalpha:
Thoroughly Nice Bloke:
I'm afraid that you two have rather lost the plot. I have been seriously out of work twice (complete with a wife and two kids and a mortgage) but I have stuck to my beliefs that any employer who will not pay for your training is not worth working for. I have worked in pubs etc in the meantime and it paid off in the end for I have had a pretty successful aviation career in the end.
The original thread was about whether it was a good idea to pay for an F27 type rating (£9500 + VAT + the expense of doing the course) because the company involved were "hurting" and couldn't afford the training costs. A job would follow provided that the course was completed successfully.
Where would you be if you didn't pass the course? If the company is that strapped for cash, what are their long term prospects? How successful have they been in the past? Do they have lots of contracts in hand so that if they lose one, they will be able to continue in financial health with the other existing contracts without laying pilots off?
If you have any doubts on any of these questions then you simply must not even entertain the idea, for you will be £9500 + VAT + expenses out of pocket.
On the credit side, you will have a type-rating on a 40 year-old aeroplane that very few companies fly and is as much use as a chocolate kettle!
By the way, I had a friend who paid for an A320 rating some years ago. He still has it but never ever did get a job flying the A320!
There also seems to be a bit of confusion about how bonds work. In my present company for example the bond lasts for 3 years. Provided that you stay with the company for 3 years then it does not cost you a penny. The bond is simply amortized on a monthly basis and your take-home pay is exactly the same as a type-rated colleague.
Thoroughly Nice Bloke:
I'm afraid that you two have rather lost the plot. I have been seriously out of work twice (complete with a wife and two kids and a mortgage) but I have stuck to my beliefs that any employer who will not pay for your training is not worth working for. I have worked in pubs etc in the meantime and it paid off in the end for I have had a pretty successful aviation career in the end.
The original thread was about whether it was a good idea to pay for an F27 type rating (£9500 + VAT + the expense of doing the course) because the company involved were "hurting" and couldn't afford the training costs. A job would follow provided that the course was completed successfully.
Where would you be if you didn't pass the course? If the company is that strapped for cash, what are their long term prospects? How successful have they been in the past? Do they have lots of contracts in hand so that if they lose one, they will be able to continue in financial health with the other existing contracts without laying pilots off?
If you have any doubts on any of these questions then you simply must not even entertain the idea, for you will be £9500 + VAT + expenses out of pocket.
On the credit side, you will have a type-rating on a 40 year-old aeroplane that very few companies fly and is as much use as a chocolate kettle!
By the way, I had a friend who paid for an A320 rating some years ago. He still has it but never ever did get a job flying the A320!
There also seems to be a bit of confusion about how bonds work. In my present company for example the bond lasts for 3 years. Provided that you stay with the company for 3 years then it does not cost you a penny. The bond is simply amortized on a monthly basis and your take-home pay is exactly the same as a type-rated colleague.
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Pedroalpha and JW411, no matter what your views on paying for type ratings are, one things certain, with BAC they will sure as hell make sure they will come out on the winning end as far as money is concerned.They have always been a cut throat outfit as far as costs have been concerned.
Bottom line is if you have 15k to spend and you are willing to chance it then go ahead, personally I would expect some levels of guarantee's, which I dont think you are going to get.
I agree with JW411, why are we paying up front for the privilege(?) to work for these people?
If BAC wanted to be really fair, then why not just bond as normal, or failing that pay back the 15k over 3 years?
The reason.....because they can.
Its a tough call for those who have yet to find that first job, tougher when you pay up and dont get what you expect...not that I would expect to happen, but it does have a big element of risk involved with all the cards stacked in BAC's favour, if indeed this is what they are doing.
Be careful....
Last time I had anything to do with BAC, Mike Forsyth was at the helm, tough customer who drives his staff, otherwise a friendly enough company....dont under estimate their abilty to be around in another 10yrs, they are a bit like the cockroaches of the aviation world....they will survive where others fail....as long as Royal Mail keep them in the air!
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While there is a supply of pilots desperate for that first FO position, then there will be people willing to pay the money for a type rating. Many turboprop operators will get their come-uppance when their Captains desert them in droves as the employment situation improves. If I was the manager of a smallish turboprop outfit, I would be trying to get people onboard on a heavy bond but without upfront type rating costs, with the possibility of promoting them to the LHS and keeping them for a year or two at least. It will turn around as sure as eggs are eggs, in fact I think the cracks are already appearing!
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Can anyone tell what BAC Express will pay after this self-sponsored TRTO course?
I have heared all the arguments for and against this, but depending on what the rewards are after the expense, it might still be worth it, in my humble opinion.
I have heared all the arguments for and against this, but depending on what the rewards are after the expense, it might still be worth it, in my humble opinion.
Last edited by Deep Float; 28th Jun 2002 at 20:32.
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A couple of thoughts on this.
The advantage of paying for your type rating is that you can leave whenever you want, unlike your colleagues stuck with a three-year bond that they can't get out of at all. This means that you can take advantage of a rapidly-changing employment market.
The chances are very high that, if you do move on, the subsequent rise in salary will more than pay for the loan you took out to pay for the type rating.
I have seen this happen many times; folk take out loan to buy turboprop type rating, six months later they get hired by a bigger operator and still show a massive increase in take-home pay, despite the training loan.
One thing is for sure, there is NOTHING as frustrating as seeing the job market take off, just after you signed a three-year bond to fly a turboprop... watching all your friends flying big jets while you still have two years to go on your bond... the loss of potential earnings alone is horrendous.
The advantage of paying for your type rating is that you can leave whenever you want, unlike your colleagues stuck with a three-year bond that they can't get out of at all. This means that you can take advantage of a rapidly-changing employment market.
The chances are very high that, if you do move on, the subsequent rise in salary will more than pay for the loan you took out to pay for the type rating.
I have seen this happen many times; folk take out loan to buy turboprop type rating, six months later they get hired by a bigger operator and still show a massive increase in take-home pay, despite the training loan.
One thing is for sure, there is NOTHING as frustrating as seeing the job market take off, just after you signed a three-year bond to fly a turboprop... watching all your friends flying big jets while you still have two years to go on your bond... the loss of potential earnings alone is horrendous.
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Well guys I'd be very careful to say the least.
I payed for a type rating several years ago but eventually got a job flying something else.
Also, when I joined my present company with a current type rating they still bonded me, I shall say no more !
I payed for a type rating several years ago but eventually got a job flying something else.
Also, when I joined my present company with a current type rating they still bonded me, I shall say no more !