Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Germanwings crash: Have cockpit doors changed?

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Germanwings crash: Have cockpit doors changed?

Old 25th Mar 2016, 19:35
  #1 (permalink)  
Plumbum Pendular
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 54
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Germanwings crash: Have cockpit doors changed?

How is Sean Maffett qualified to comment on something that he is totally uneducated about:

"The concept of always having more than one person on the flight deck is an improvement, argues aviation analyst Sean Maffett, although this is an added expense for cash-strapped smaller airlines who need to train staff."

Germanwings crash: Have cockpit doors changed? - BBC News

It is absolutely not an improvement.
fmgc is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2016, 22:28
  #2 (permalink)  
Sir George Cayley
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Don't know the guy so can't comment. However, can you suggest a solution better than the current state of the art?
 
Old 25th Mar 2016, 22:48
  #3 (permalink)  
Plumbum Pendular
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: Avionics Bay
Age: 54
Posts: 1,117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Yes, forget the whole two people in the cockpit at all times policy.
fmgc is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2016, 22:59
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Here and there
Posts: 3,077
Received 14 Likes on 11 Posts
Our company have required two in the cockpit since the advent of locked cockpit doors. It's never been a problem for us. What don't you like about it?
AerocatS2A is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:11
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: morayshire
Posts: 766
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Sean Maffet .....

......is a very experienced ex RAF transport chap. He is also a very well respected commentator and broadcaster on aviation matters and posts in these hallowed halls from time to time under the name "Airsound".

You may want to moderate the censorious tone of your OP.

The Ancient Mariner

Last edited by Rossian; 25th Mar 2016 at 23:12. Reason: typo
Rossian is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2016, 23:17
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: England
Posts: 1,072
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You may want to moderate the censorious tone of your OP.
Or perhaps you may not.
ZeBedie is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2016, 07:48
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: UK
Posts: 730
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Rossian, RAF Transport Command experience does not qualify one for commenting on airline ops. Being a commentator, broadcaster or journalist is often a disqualification; look at the usual pundits on BBC and Channel 4 and you'll agree. Only if he has airline experience does have some qualification to comment. I don't know him, so I am making no judgement.

As to whether the policy is beneficial, for most companies it is a hindrance, having to wait until a cabin crew member (who is not psycologically screened) reports to the cockpit, which often takes considerable time, and sometimes is too late, arriving after the aircraft is descending and the workload too high to safely leave the cockpit. However, some airlines played dispicably cheap with the regulations and only installed the armoured door, not the cameras for the pilots to see who is outside the door, needing someone to physically check through the spy hole (disgracefully, many are too lazy to do so), which obviously can't be done if one pilot is alone in the cockpit, so the cabin crew can do that check and open the door for the returning second pilot.

So, the policy's benefit depends on the company.
Aluminium shuffler is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2016, 08:30
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,523
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Presumably Sean Maffat was aware of the actual wording of the actual EASA recommendation (EASA SIB 2015-04, datd 27th March 2015) when writing his piece- here's the important bit:

operators are recommended to
implement procedures requiring at least two persons
authorised in accordance with CAT.GEN.MPA.135 to be in
the flight crew compartment at all times, or other equivalent
mitigating measures to address risks identified by the
operator’s revised assessment.
It's short paragraph worth a careful read.....

Last edited by wiggy; 26th Mar 2016 at 08:52.
wiggy is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 13:27
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: JAAland
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Does any airline have provisions for ferry flights? That is do you carry an extra crew member so that the cockpit crew are able to comply with the EASA recommendation in case they should need to go to the lavs?

Mine doesn't, and I'm yet to receive a decent answer why ferry flights should be operated in accordance with EASA safety recommendations.
SlowAndSilly is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 13:56
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK.
Posts: 4,391
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
OP BBC article:
The pilot had no way to get into the cabin because of one event - 9/11.
Exactly! One event; no repeats.

also:
The Israeli airline El Al effectively has a toilet within the secure part of the cockpit.
The way we have to go.
Basil is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 14:20
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Does any airline have provisions for ferry flights? That is do you carry an extra crew member so that the cockpit crew are able to comply with the EASA recommendation in case they should need to go to the lavs?
Just checked my OMA, which does not include the 2 person on the flightdeck rule. However the Interim Procedure Leaflet to that effect is still in force and does not have an excemption for ferry flights. So yes, we should better not take off without an extra crew member or take an empty bottle for "physiolical needs" into the flight deck...
Denti is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 14:28
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Newcastle
Age: 53
Posts: 613
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Exactly! One event; no repeats.
Probably because of the security measures put in place.
MATELO is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 14:49
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The two person rule is more practical for some aircraft types/cabin set ups than others. If it works for you then you are clearly not facing the issues some of us are.

Ignoring the security element of it for one minute (i.e. you now introduce MORE predictability as to when a door is going to open. I.e. If a CC member has gone into the FD, rest assured a pilot is going to come out within 30 seconds and vice versa), it's damn awful not to be able to have a pee when I choose. Instead someone else decides. We fly fully laden 220 passenger A321s with average sector length at 4 hours, with only one toilet forward of row 19.



Everybody from that row onwards and a good portion of those behind row 19 want to use toilet number 1 (lack of education on this also pisses me off). As such, timing is of paramount importance. We used to be able to look at the camera screen, see the area is clear and jump out for a pee. Not now, by the time you've got the attention of a CC, they have come in and you get up, there could be 2 or 3 people standing in the forward galley. If it's a granny or a little kid, you think twice about asking if you can go in first. It's not a healthy setup, especially if like me you pee as often as a water fountain at altitude (I'm fine on the ground). Whatever timing you had in mind when you were sitting and and thinking of a pee, is now gone through the window. Now you're standing and holding it. Yes, we are not children - we should be able to hold it! But holding it 3 or 4 times a day for longer than I would if I were on the ground, AND for the rest of my flying career? That's got to be doing some long lasting damage!

Yes, my airline doesn't curtain off the forward galley or station a cart in between. It considers it too impractical.

Last edited by Superpilot; 31st Mar 2016 at 11:26.
Superpilot is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 16:10
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,523
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
The two person rule is more practical for some aircraft types/cabin set ups than others.
I suspect that's one of several reasons why EASA very carefully used the word "recommend", rather than for example "must" in the SIB (you can bet your bottom euro that the document was approved by the lawyers). Of course how your company chooses to phrase things in your OM is another matter.
wiggy is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 16:50
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: FL, USA
Posts: 411
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Superpilot,


Who exactly is in command of the aircraft when you fly?
WhatsaLizad? is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 17:13
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 82
Posts: 3,787
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 2 Posts
In the interests of accuracy, Sean Maffett was a Transport Command navigator on Andover and Belfast aircraft.
JW411 is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 19:04
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK.
Posts: 4,391
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Quote:
Exactly! One event; no repeats.
Probably because of the security measures put in place.
My point precisely. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.
Basil is offline  
Old 30th Mar 2016, 23:18
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 67
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
The two people in the flight deck rule is complete and utter bollocks. It suggests that just before one person leaves, another comes in (or one leaves and the other comes in). And in that time, the aircraft had to be flown and communications have to be monitored. At the same time, nothing must be touched that would compromise the aircraft. Then we are invariably left with cabin crew monitoring us. And prey tell me, what could they do? Would they know you have just done something that will jeopordise the aircraft? (There are no prizes for the correct answer). So if Mr Moffat is unable to see the problem with this shyte dictat, then he was little more than talking ballast.

Do I stick to the rule? Yes. Of course I do and compromise flight safety in the process because it does creates unnecessary hassle. But as ever, the practitioners of onastic practices in EASA have fudged and fumbled to try and weasle their way out the problem. The problem is that there are are (too many) people flying public transport aircraft who shouldn't be.



ps. Are there any pilots in EASA? I get the impression it is made up of wannabes and ner'do'wells.
Piltdown Man is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2016, 11:22
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
WhatsaLizard, don't get the question. I'm a lowly FO.
Superpilot is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2016, 11:39
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,523
Received 5 Likes on 5 Posts
Piltdown Man

The two people in the flight deck rule is complete and utter bollocks.
Agreed, but if it's a rule, as in a "must", it didn't come from EASA.

...
Are there any pilots in EASA?
Might be, but the problem might be closer to home..

If the EASA recommendation is causing so much grief where you work then is it worth trying to get your management in your own company to read again what EASA actually wrote, perform their own risk assessment and then implement " other equivalent mitigating measures"....or would that cost them too much?
wiggy is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.