B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
I am wondering if MAK could have hard evidence of pilot disagreement from FDR, or whether they would have to deduce that from the voice transcript.
Mickjoebill
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Much as I hate to add to all this, I am looking at a DFDR Service Report (readout) for a 737 CL that shows control column position, control wheel position, rudder pedal position and the positions of the control surfaces connected to these devices. No reason to think an NG wouldn't be recording the same.
(Please note, I am not speculating as to the cause of this tragedy, just the comments about technical aspects of the 737).
(Please note, I am not speculating as to the cause of this tragedy, just the comments about technical aspects of the 737).
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MAK facts
Russia’s Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC) said a preliminary analysis of the flydubai Boeing 737 data recorder has found “no onboard system malfunctions, aircraft components’ defects or power system failures.”
He's the boss of the Aviation regulator and the Chairman of an Airline in the UAE???? You are kidding me.......
Well at least they are obvious in their intentions!!
Well at least they are obvious in their intentions!!
The 737 is running on grandfather certification rights, and systems that remain the same do not have to be recertified. This does not mean these systems meet modern certification. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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« On Mar 29th 2016 the MAK condemned all “leaked” information reported by Russian media as false and stated, that no information whatsoever has been leaked from the investigation. About 1 hour of CVR has been transcribed so far, including the crew communication in the final stages of the flight. Mechanical reconstruction as well as preliminary analysis of the flight data recorder so far do not suggest any malfunction of the engines of the aircraft and no failures of aircraft systems or components, the aircraft had all necessary documentation and certificates of airworthiness, passed all required maintenance and was airworthy at the time of departure. The MAK is now undertaking mathematical modelling of the aircraft's flight trajectory in combination with the sounds available on the CVR. The identification of wreckage pieces and mechanical reconstruction of the aircraft continues. »
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Well, there are force sensors on each column. Between the column itself and the Control cables. If one pilot pushes on the column and the other pushes you will see this as positive and negative values. No need to activate the breakout mechanism to see conflicting inputs.
We are now talking about the force exerted on each column, as you say the column deflection will be the same (who is strongest) until the breakout mechanism is activated.
And yes, the sensors are in the AMM.
We are now talking about the force exerted on each column, as you say the column deflection will be the same (who is strongest) until the breakout mechanism is activated.
And yes, the sensors are in the AMM.
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Depending upon the data frame, (1, 2, i, 4-4A, 5, 6), for the CL they may have just the left control column and wheel position, or both left & right control column and wheel position and I believe just one data frame also has control column & control wheel force.
As may be deduced from discussion above, this will obviously be different (more elaborate) for the NG due aircraft manufacturing date and FAA data frame requirements.
If the recorder for the NG is the same as the CL and if it is FDAU-equipped but with no DMU then the QAR will collect the same data that is going to the SSFDR; if FDAU and DMU-equipped, a separate, more complex data frame with higher resolution and sample rates, (still proprietary and very expensive), is possible but as some here will know, the QAR is not crash-protected.
As may be deduced from discussion above, this will obviously be different (more elaborate) for the NG due aircraft manufacturing date and FAA data frame requirements.
If the recorder for the NG is the same as the CL and if it is FDAU-equipped but with no DMU then the QAR will collect the same data that is going to the SSFDR; if FDAU and DMU-equipped, a separate, more complex data frame with higher resolution and sample rates, (still proprietary and very expensive), is possible but as some here will know, the QAR is not crash-protected.
Last edited by FDMII; 30th Mar 2016 at 07:48.
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As a computer programmer who found this forum invaluable when MH370 went missing but from MH17 to Metro has seen it get more and more diluted with accountants who think they can fly better on their PC, could you perhaps make 'profession' and 'pilot's licence Y/N' mandatory and display them in the left sidebar? Because any fool can google, and it'd be nice to see 'meteorologist' next to a post on windshear instead of 'accountant'.
Banning non-pilots would lose the valuable input that controllers and ground crew and engineers and investigators have to offer. But the flight sim guys are really killing you
Banning non-pilots would lose the valuable input that controllers and ground crew and engineers and investigators have to offer. But the flight sim guys are really killing you
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Infieldg, those who know their stuff and actually do this work (and who remain to post here despite the high noise levels), recognize good work and engage it and give the rest a miss. Always, there are at least two levels of dialogue going on at once! ;-) Having posted here for over a dozen years now, I don't think it's going to change and as you say, you can't just limit it to professional pilots - too much would be lost!
@Infieldg, it had already been diluted massively by the time you joined. You would have loved it ten years ago. I have learnt a lot over the years from pprune. Now, I worry that pilots ten years behind me will believe half the rubbish that is posted here.
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To be strict, FDAU doesn't record anything, it collects signals and transfer them to recorders or other devices.
But you're right, DFDR from 5 yo Boeing a/c, must be able to record CC inputs separately.
Screen below comes from report related to TK1951 (737NG) crash during landing at AMS
But you're right, DFDR from 5 yo Boeing a/c, must be able to record CC inputs separately.
Screen below comes from report related to TK1951 (737NG) crash during landing at AMS
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To be strict, FDAU doesn't record anything, it collects signals and transfer them to recorders or other devices.
But you're right, DFDR from 5 yo Boeing a/c, must be able to record CC inputs separately.
Screen below comes from report related to TK1951 (737NG) crash during landing at AMS
But you're right, DFDR from 5 yo Boeing a/c, must be able to record CC inputs separately.
Screen below comes from report related to TK1951 (737NG) crash during landing at AMS
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Sciolistes, there are 3 curves in that plot, not 2.
The two for the control column positions are coincident, the third that differs matches the scale in the right margin and gives pitch displayed in the captain's ADI.
The two for the control column positions are coincident, the third that differs matches the scale in the right margin and gives pitch displayed in the captain's ADI.
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Ah, that's my earlier point. The Russian leak said the pilot were applying opposite elevator commands. My point is that simply cannot be seen on the FDR without breaking out.
force recording also
In particular this reference includes
(88) All cockpit flight control input forces (control wheel, control column, rudder pedal).
Force input reporting is not only possible, but in at least some portion of the fleet, is required.
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But I am referring to the leak which said that the captain and of where applying opposite forces.
Don't do this ... don't do this ... don't do this ...
We must understand that the media are under pressure to keep up the daily reporting, despite the absence of any new material.
For us here to spend so much time on this "dual inputs" speculation not only makes us as bad as them, it also encourages them.
Can we please drop the "dual inputs" stuff and stop encouraging the media flights of fancy?