B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
atrepster
Good question about the noise-canceling headsets.
I used some late in my career and, as I recall, one could still hear pertinent warnings and sounds. This was not on the 737.
The trim wheel and sound on the 737 was pretty hard to miss. Visually as well.
Are there any 737 guys using those types of headsets who could comment on this?
I used some late in my career and, as I recall, one could still hear pertinent warnings and sounds. This was not on the 737.
The trim wheel and sound on the 737 was pretty hard to miss. Visually as well.
Are there any 737 guys using those types of headsets who could comment on this?
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The HS on the NG is a very powerful device. If it is grossly out of trim, the elevators are not big enought to get you out of the situation.
And on approach, and goaround where you hear the trim move around alot wold you catch a runaway trim situation in time to recover?
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Why do you guys talk about runaway trim situation, when it is a predictable situation, that the autopilot will trim hard nose down, if it is trying to level out against the "will" of full power set? And than disconnects due to the pitch down max attitude exceeded?
It is a situation that can be clearly predicted. If you are not caught by surprise.
Somebody, who has an access to a B737 sim should try the "high energy goaround in the sim"
It is a situation that can be clearly predicted. If you are not caught by surprise.
Somebody, who has an access to a B737 sim should try the "high energy goaround in the sim"
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In relation to the noise cancelling headsets; how do we know if they were using them to cover both ears?
Many people, self included, have one ear only partially or totally uncovered. It's usually the side closest to the centre console, ie right ear for Capt, left for FO.
Many people, self included, have one ear only partially or totally uncovered. It's usually the side closest to the centre console, ie right ear for Capt, left for FO.
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The "Russian Translation" if accurate implies the stabiliser was running away, either uncommanded or by human intervention Aka all the theories voiced herein. Something about a " fin switch" can only relate to the stab trim cut outs by the throttle quadrant, part of the memory items, or the black guarded cut out switch at the rear of the pedestal used by engineers ( clutch). I agree if I was flying and the other person was trimming down I would quickly notice this and firmly holding the column would stop this, so thats more than confusing to say the least. Runaway stabiliser is trained in the sim and unless the crew were operating with opposed opinions of the events it should be manageable. Its conceivable that with fatigue and hand over of controls for weather conditions a complete lack of SA occurred, sadly.
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Interesting incident:
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B...,_2002_(LOC_HF)
Looks it could be very related
http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/B...,_2002_(LOC_HF)
Looks it could be very related
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Didn't see a comment in Russian language blogs where a Boeing pilot would immediately recognise "knuppel", like "Oh, I know what it is." Russian Boeing pilots seem to have learned their aircraft in English manuals and documentation that don't mention the name. Older generation technicians, though, recalled knuppel.
Can be knuppel was fed to the media because it allows for different interpretations. Or it was obvious for the leak source that it is a perfect knuppel.
I give up.
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Lost in Translation?
My theory, being a journalist: The "knuppel" might be referring to the German "Steuerknüppel" or just "Knüppel", meaning stick or yoke in an aviation context – as has been mentioned here before. "Knüppel" usually means "club".
The "knuypel" might have made it into the Russian news story by means of miscommunication between a journalist and his/her source. The source here probably being not a Russian, maybe German, and the journalist not well versed in aviation terminology. I write about tech and see something like that happen a lot when it comes to specific technological language.
I'd think the source may have meant something like trim was activated by a switch on the yoke or "ein Schalter am Knüppel" in German.
The "knuypel" might have made it into the Russian news story by means of miscommunication between a journalist and his/her source. The source here probably being not a Russian, maybe German, and the journalist not well versed in aviation terminology. I write about tech and see something like that happen a lot when it comes to specific technological language.
I'd think the source may have meant something like trim was activated by a switch on the yoke or "ein Schalter am Knüppel" in German.
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If this mistake was made,he would be trimming down when he thought he was transmitting to ATC.
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I wear a modern ANR headset, with very good passive noise reduction too, and the trim wheel is absolutely clearly audible over all the other flight deck noises. Unlikely that it could be missed (but obviously not impossible) but more likely it simply doesn't attract attention with it being a familiar noise at this phase of flight. A crew would have to recognise the trim running for an unusual length of time, but with other more "urgent" distractions such as weather, or a degredation in capacity due to fatigue, I could accept it as a possibility.
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Lost in Translation?
My theory, being a journalist: The "knuppel" might be referring to the German "Steuerknüppel" or just "Knüppel", meaning stick or yoke in an aviation context – as has been mentioned here before. "Knüppel" usually means "club".
The "knuypel" might have made it into the Russian news story by means of miscommunication between a journalist and his/her source. The source here probably being not a Russian, maybe German, and the journalist not well versed in aviation terminology. I write about tech and see something like that happen a lot when it comes to specific technological language.
I'd think the source may have meant something like trim was activated by a switch on the yoke or "ein Schalter am Knüppel" in German.
My theory, being a journalist: The "knuppel" might be referring to the German "Steuerknüppel" or just "Knüppel", meaning stick or yoke in an aviation context – as has been mentioned here before. "Knüppel" usually means "club".
The "knuypel" might have made it into the Russian news story by means of miscommunication between a journalist and his/her source. The source here probably being not a Russian, maybe German, and the journalist not well versed in aviation terminology. I write about tech and see something like that happen a lot when it comes to specific technological language.
I'd think the source may have meant something like trim was activated by a switch on the yoke or "ein Schalter am Knüppel" in German.
The tv report says the commander disconnected the AP at the time of a wind shear and he had used the knüppel (rocker switch) before to stab trim down or stab trim happened for unknown technical reasons.
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The "knuypel" might have made it into the Russian news story by means of miscommunication between a journalist and his/her source.
I wear a modern ANR headset, with very good passive noise reduction too, and the trim wheel is absolutely clearly audible over all the other flight deck noises. Unlikely that it could be missed (but obviously not impossible) but more likely it simply doesn't attract attention with it being a familiar noise at this phase of flight. A crew would have to recognise the trim running for an unusual length of time, but with other more "urgent" distractions such as weather, or a degredation in capacity due to fatigue, I could accept it as a possibility.
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More from RT: https://www.rt.com/news/337270-emira...brutal-roster/
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As to Roger, I think it meant "Got it" since it was said by the tower.
(Non-aviation - related Russian might think "Roger" is a flashy foreign way to say "Bye, end of talk." Influenced by video movies watched in 1990-s with police stories and various American police hoovering helicopters. They always said that in the end of radio talks.)
(Non-aviation - related Russian might think "Roger" is a flashy foreign way to say "Bye, end of talk." Influenced by video movies watched in 1990-s with police stories and various American police hoovering helicopters. They always said that in the end of radio talks.)
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If one recalls the NAS incident in Kittila 26/12/2012,
Ok this was due to icing fluid accumulation , however, given the conditions it may be worth a thought..although in this event the crew were working in harmony where as it would "appear" in the Rostov event there was some confusion.
Ok this was due to icing fluid accumulation , however, given the conditions it may be worth a thought..although in this event the crew were working in harmony where as it would "appear" in the Rostov event there was some confusion.
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Why do people who hace never flown the 737 write drivel, and muddy the waters? They really should go back home, I can hear Muma calling.
Originally Posted by threemiles
Also the "wind scissors" are a "wind shear", because in German "schere" means "scissors" and "windscherung" means "wind shear".
It appears that some of these translations have been done by automatic means, perhaps sometimes two or three times successively.
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"B737 trim does not work the same as small aircraft trim. In small aircraft you trim out the forces. But in B737 which has THS, you do not necessarily trim out the force. As a matter of fact, you can have the control column in neutral position with no force, while the THS is being trimmed hard forward and not feel anything on control column."
Actually to some degree, this is true. You still trim out the control column forces, but for the most part, the yoke remains centered when trimmed. In a light ac, you are changing the position of the elevator and yoke with trim changes.
Actually to some degree, this is true. You still trim out the control column forces, but for the most part, the yoke remains centered when trimmed. In a light ac, you are changing the position of the elevator and yoke with trim changes.