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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

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B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don

Old 19th Mar 2016, 14:21
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
No, the NG flies quite nicely if you go around. It produces thrust to give a climb rate of 1000-2000 ft/m unless you press TOGA a second time. It climbed 2500 ft, not to 2500 ft if I understand it correctly.

The NG flies well with ice on it. It flies well with a lot of ice on it. They would have been pretty much ice free when they went around, and I don't see how they could have accumulated enough ice to fall out of the sky in a 2500 ft climb.
Considering the +6 degrees in the METAR limit of freezing level/0 degrees can be expected 1000 m/3300 ft above AD at the time, no or very limited icing below.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 14:28
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"At 15.22:51 (6 seconds after initiating Go Around) engine power reached 83% N1. By 15.23:11 pitch angle increased to more than 25 degrees, and the first "push" movement of the yoke was registered. At that moment airplane was at 2000', climbing 4000'/min. During next 5 seconds pitch decreased from 25 degrees to nearly normal horizontal flight condition and continued to decrease. Plane stopped climbing at 2300'. G-force = 0,5g. At 15.23:16 the second "push" movement of the yoke was registered. As a result of it, pitch changed to -20 degrees, speed to -5000'/min, G-force =0g, speed 140 kt, increasing 10kt/s. At 15.23:21 the third "push" movement of the yoke was registered. As a result of it, G-force changed to -0.9g, pitch angle to -60 degrees. At 15.23:28 airplane collided with the ground close to runway with an airspeed 245kt and pitch angle -75 degrees."

17.11.2013, Tatarstan 363, Kazan.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 14:31
  #123 (permalink)  
 
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821 - whilst there were extenuating circumstances (drunk CP and asymmetric thrust levers) is was essentially a loss of spatial disorientation following a discontinued approach (an EXTREMELY messy one at that) followed by a high nose attitude (soon after applying 'almost' take off power) which went unchanged, followed by a steep turn of up to 76 degrees before performing almost a complete 'barrel roll' then impacting the ground at very high speed with the wreckage highly fragmented spread over a small area.

That's how I can say there is a possible relation. In this instance I'd bet my house on there being no alcohol in the FZ crew's system.

ManaAdaSystems - the aircraft was likely very light, it would have climbed quickly.

Anyone know if it's FZ policy to 'double click' during a G/A balked landing?

Syntax Error I totally agree. However UAE does have some high standards. In fact the world does, apart from South East Asia. I'd have no problem boarding an FZ flight, any European, North American LCC and in Australia I'd even board a Tiger Airways flight. These days on a whole LCCs are extremely safe.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 14:40
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ManaAdaSystems - the aircraft was likely very light, it would have climbed quickly. Anyone know if it's Faz policy to 'double click' during a G/A balked landing?
Why are you saying this?
It climbs with a rate of 1000-2000 ft/m no matter how light it is.
That is how the aircraft works.
Now, if you hit TOGA a second time you will go up like a bat out of hell if you are light. 5000 ft/m+
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 14:49
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Why am I saying this? How do you know they didn't hit TOGA a second time? Would make sense to me. If there are CBs about or WSHR it would make perfect sense. Notwithstanding the fact that pressing it once will give you a margin above buffet speed to account for any turbulence or shear surely it would make sense to use all power available. A windshear go around is an escape manoeuvre after all. I'd rather escape with a big margin than just what is required for certification. Wouldn't you?
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 14:58
  #126 (permalink)  
 
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Guys !
Somebody worn you some time (posts) ago :
'Do not rely on FR24 data... '
What about if this "climb 2500' " were wrong signal , or if ... etc. ...
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:02
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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The biggest problem for them was a V-bar Flight Director; the rest of their fleet had Cross-bars.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:03
  #128 (permalink)  
 
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Message above was for HeartyMeatballs about 821 flight
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:18
  #129 (permalink)  

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The x-axis is just timestamp, not lateral distance. Data taken from FR24. The corrections are mine, back of the fag-packet. The wind would indeed increase with height, but also veer keeping HWC similar - that's the assumption.



Logansi's raw data is much finer resolution, but I do not know how to obtain those to my spreadsheet.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:49
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Obviously the reasons are very different, however, I am posting this video of the 747 crashing after a stall in Afghanistan. Would you agree about the similarities in the descent angle between this video and what is apparent from the CCTV footage shown from this accident in Russia?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGnSYiXv8hE

Last edited by JumpJumpJump; 19th Mar 2016 at 18:15. Reason: Removed USAF reference
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:51
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Excessive pitch during GA is a normal occurrence on 737.. it should be grounded.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:51
  #132 (permalink)  

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Tatarstan airlines flight 363 anyone?
Many posters above, all wrong.

The data on this one show speed to increase during the go-around, crew well organized on the radio. Tatarstan did not touch the controls, approached stall at peak and botched the recovery. To begin with, they got lost over familiar airport.

Personally, I struggle to se any significant similiarities. Do you?
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:52
  #133 (permalink)  
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Refer to the following B737-800 botched Go Around in Bournemouth in 2007
The report says 737-3Q8, did you post the wrong link perhaps?

GA and then stall?
Not again???
Nowadays, we are all encouraged to go around for a wide variety of reasons, as if going around is a risk free procedure that will automatically cure all your troubles.

Yes, I know a GA is a normal manoeuvre, and shouldn't cause a regular crew any difficulty, but here's another accident on the go around.
And until very recently, most of the training I've had in this area was a go around from near minimums. When you perform a go around at other phases of the approach, there are nuances of the speed window opening, altitude capture, autothrottle modes and number of autopilots engaged that sometimes puzzle even the geniuses over at the sim building.

On the widebody Boeings that I've flown you leave the autopilot on but disconnect the autothrottles and manually apply full thrust on a windshear escape maneuver on a coupled approach. Would this be the same on a B-738?
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:54
  #134 (permalink)  
 
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I am posting this video of the USAF 747 crashing after a stall in Afghanistan
Not USAF, National Airlines. USAF would still be on the ramp programming the FMS in 2016.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:56
  #135 (permalink)  
 
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Airbubba,
my typo IT was a B737-3 in the UK in 2007
and the 737 does not have the same logic as wide body boeing.
The A/P on the 737 will disconnect , once you press the TO/GA buttons
You fly the initial Missed Approach manually, and then re-engage at an appropriate time
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 15:59
  #136 (permalink)  
 
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Airbubba is very right.. a not close to ground GA can get nasty..and the most probable scenario...+ 6 hours flight in a cockpit designed for 1,5..night, bad weather may be some icing.. and probably already tired and stressed out crew. I wonder why they did to go to their alternate...well I know the answer... Start getting used to this events in low cost non unionized or partially unionized airlines squeezing life out of their crew ..
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 16:00
  #137 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by HighLow
B737-3 in the UK in 2007
BOURNEMOUTH: "During the go-around the aircraft pitched up excessively; flight crew attempts to reduce the aircraft’s pitch were largely ineffective. The aircraft reached a maximum pitch of 44 nose-up and the indicated airspeed reduced to 82 kt."

How is this similar to FZ, who climbed by 2500 feet whilst increasing speed from 150 to 220 kts?
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 16:02
  #138 (permalink)  
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The A/P on the 737 will disconnect , once you press the TO/GA buttons
You fly the initial Missed Approach manually, and then re-engage at an appropriate time
Thanks for the insight, I appreciate it!
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 16:03
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The A/P on the 737 will disconnect , once you press the TO/GA buttons
And that depends on system status and SOPs. If you always use a dual channel approach, as some carriers do, then no, the autopilot will not disconnect and fly a nice and easy automatic go around with reduced thrust, as long as you press that TOGA button only once. Even in manual flight, if using the AT ARM mode (SPD deselect), reduced go around thrust will be set on the first click, and not more. Of course, it has the downside of the uptrim at around 380ft AGL, but that is a non-issue if trained for it.
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Old 19th Mar 2016, 16:05
  #140 (permalink)  
 
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V-bars

The biggest problem for them was a V-bar Flight Director; the rest of their fleet had Cross-bars.
Wow, is this true?

I had a f/o try to turn the aircraft upside down one dark night because of V-bars (only one in the fleet again). We were 4 or 5 seconds from being upside down at 2,000'. And I was heads down with a frequency change.

Left the company and warned the authorities, but nobody seems to care. Tombstone regulation.

P.S. Nothing wrong with V-bars, I think they are brilliant. But you cannot mix and match, just as you cannot have half the fleet with western ADIs and half with Russian.

T

Last edited by tatelyle; 19th Mar 2016 at 17:05.
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