B-738 Crash in Russia Rostov-on-Don
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Somehow I think "can't see the wood for the trees" is becoming relevant to all the multi theory speculation.
Absolutely, it has become a feature on this website to the detriment of reasoned analysis.
Absolutely, it has become a feature on this website to the detriment of reasoned analysis.
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And, referring to flight path you've posted, to get a better review you need to add pitch angle (and speed) change to the image.
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And, referring to flight path you've posted, to get a better review you need to add pitch angle (and speed) change to the image.
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klintE, you are asking how a pilot could ignore ADI indication. I think that constantly flying on the autopilot, or manually flying with the FDs makes for a very efficient degradation of the ability to scan. I see it in the sim. I have to teach a lot of basic scanning techniques.
Especially those who flew only glass cockpit are very vulnerable. They have not developped
proper scanning techniques, even though they might be flying glass for years. And the skill does not get better under stress. I have seen people pushing down in the sim, which initially was a correct reaction to a nose high attitude, but keeping to push without noticing the original nose high situation was developping to nose low. I even had an FO who did not know the little dot was a pitch, as he was flying by looking only at the bird. There is people here who do not instruct. So they do not know the state of general flying ability. And they forget that there is a difference in the ability to actively scan as opposed to being a happy pilot-passenger kind of automation dependent until the skill is needed....
Especially those who flew only glass cockpit are very vulnerable. They have not developped
proper scanning techniques, even though they might be flying glass for years. And the skill does not get better under stress. I have seen people pushing down in the sim, which initially was a correct reaction to a nose high attitude, but keeping to push without noticing the original nose high situation was developping to nose low. I even had an FO who did not know the little dot was a pitch, as he was flying by looking only at the bird. There is people here who do not instruct. So they do not know the state of general flying ability. And they forget that there is a difference in the ability to actively scan as opposed to being a happy pilot-passenger kind of automation dependent until the skill is needed....
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I'm somewhat confused and don't want to overstep my limits here. I've got enough RW experience (152/172) to have completed my solo but not my PPL (son was diagnosed with autism).
I have no instrument experience...however...given the conditions and low cloud cover and a manual maneuver how would the PF not be flying pitch, power and artificial horizon/attitude indicator?
Is the modern flight director, HUD and other "help" such a distraction that the fundamental realities of pitch, power and attitude are that obscured?
I have no instrument experience...however...given the conditions and low cloud cover and a manual maneuver how would the PF not be flying pitch, power and artificial horizon/attitude indicator?
Is the modern flight director, HUD and other "help" such a distraction that the fundamental realities of pitch, power and attitude are that obscured?
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how would the PF not be flying pitch, power and artificial horizon/attitude indicator?
If you have some flight experience - grab some good book on aircraft accidents like for example "Aftermath" (it's written for pilots), it should open your eyes what human pilots (regardless of experience level) are capable of. I would make it a mandatory reading for any private pilot. Perhaps this would "un-confuse" you or confuse even more ...
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SLFinAZ,
you have a correct question. I am a very current captain, who is almost religious in keeping my scanning ability current. I manually fly a lot, because I feel I must keep current because I owe it to my passengers safety. But even I get sometimes somatographic illusions. And it gets really crazy. My whole body is telling me I am in a turn, when in fact I am level. The urge is so strong, than even if I see it on the instruments that I am level, I still put the controls into the turn. But than I correct it quickly. I feel like a Rowan Atkinson in Johny English movie, when he does not want to kill the Chinese prime minister but has to fight himself not to do it.
. The movie is very funny . But if you have never had somatographic illusions you will not believe how strong it can be. One of my experienced friends once dropped a pen on the floor during IMC and than picked it up. He had to give controls to the FO for the rest of the approach. He felt so screwed up. May be hape had a cold too, or was fatigued. But he said it felt like a violent tumble to him.
You see, I am current on instrument scan and I have to fight this illusions quite hard. And now imagine that most people are not current and cannot be under the existing airline training philosophy, which is just a philisophy and has not much to do in most cases in survival of difficult conditions. And the sim is unable to simulate somatographic illusions.
It is like you get off from marry-go-round and you try to walk straight. You see you are inclined, but you cannot correct it and you fall. But your life does not depend on it.
In flying an aircraft it it a question of life and death, so we have to find the streangth, be trained properly and be well rested. But airlines are prostitudes and the shareholders or owners are the pimps....
you have a correct question. I am a very current captain, who is almost religious in keeping my scanning ability current. I manually fly a lot, because I feel I must keep current because I owe it to my passengers safety. But even I get sometimes somatographic illusions. And it gets really crazy. My whole body is telling me I am in a turn, when in fact I am level. The urge is so strong, than even if I see it on the instruments that I am level, I still put the controls into the turn. But than I correct it quickly. I feel like a Rowan Atkinson in Johny English movie, when he does not want to kill the Chinese prime minister but has to fight himself not to do it.
. The movie is very funny . But if you have never had somatographic illusions you will not believe how strong it can be. One of my experienced friends once dropped a pen on the floor during IMC and than picked it up. He had to give controls to the FO for the rest of the approach. He felt so screwed up. May be hape had a cold too, or was fatigued. But he said it felt like a violent tumble to him.You see, I am current on instrument scan and I have to fight this illusions quite hard. And now imagine that most people are not current and cannot be under the existing airline training philosophy, which is just a philisophy and has not much to do in most cases in survival of difficult conditions. And the sim is unable to simulate somatographic illusions.
It is like you get off from marry-go-round and you try to walk straight. You see you are inclined, but you cannot correct it and you fall. But your life does not depend on it.
In flying an aircraft it it a question of life and death, so we have to find the streangth, be trained properly and be well rested. But airlines are prostitudes and the shareholders or owners are the pimps....
Perhaps it's worth mentioning here that with most aviation authorities you can qualify for an Instrument Rating and never have actually flown in cloud.
Flying in "real" conditions where you are flying in and out of cloud with cloud at different levels with different orientations with respect to the true horizon can be far more disorienting than flying with the screens up whilst under training.
Throw in some rain and turbulence or even wind shear with fatigue in the mix and you have more ingredients for undesired consequences.
Flying in "real" conditions where you are flying in and out of cloud with cloud at different levels with different orientations with respect to the true horizon can be far more disorienting than flying with the screens up whilst under training.
Throw in some rain and turbulence or even wind shear with fatigue in the mix and you have more ingredients for undesired consequences.
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You can experience somatogravic illusions in a sim just as you can in an aircraft in flight. In fact, when you think about it, a full-motion sim uses somatagravic illusions in combination with its visuals to create realistic sensations of motion.
When you let off the brakes and put up the power it's not that the sim cab goes scooting across the room; it just tips back to create a similar feeling to positive acceleration, using a shift in the direction of gravitational acceleration that goes misread because of where the visuals and the flight displays put the horizon. Step on the brakes and it tips forward to give you the feeling of negative acceleration.
In fact, you can experience somatagravic illusions anywhere. One cheap and easy way of producing them is with a so-called Bárány chair, one that simply rotates the subject in the horizontal plane for a while, after which he usually experiences disorientation. (Bárány won the Nobel prize for this invention and for his research into this aspect of human physiology: the role of the inner ear in maintaining balance.) Try this with a common or garden-variety office chair, putting on a blindfold and then having someone whirl you around. Stopping the chair usually results in the blindfolded subject being certain that he's now whirling around in the opposite direction, because that's what the fluid in part of his vestibular system is telling him.
Another easy way to induce disorientation is to use this childish trick of having the subject put his forehead on a baseball bat and then shuffle in a circle around it, afterwards trying to stand up and walk straight, when hilarity ensues.
We had a sim with a small problem with the visuals, when starting to taxy made the horizon bob up and down just a few degrees before settling down. That always hit me right in the pit of the stomach. My ears were arguing with my eyes then about who was correct: minor disorientation.
Another sort of disorientation is looking at a single-point light source in a darkened room, when the point of light will begin to move after a while. There your ears are not telling you that it's your head, not the point of light, that's moving.
It's good to know that most people do experience disorientation, that it's a normal human experience. I suppose that some people might think that it's some sort of weakness or defect that can't happen to them, so that when it does happen then it goes ignored, along with whatever the flight instruments are trying to tell him.
When you let off the brakes and put up the power it's not that the sim cab goes scooting across the room; it just tips back to create a similar feeling to positive acceleration, using a shift in the direction of gravitational acceleration that goes misread because of where the visuals and the flight displays put the horizon. Step on the brakes and it tips forward to give you the feeling of negative acceleration.
In fact, you can experience somatagravic illusions anywhere. One cheap and easy way of producing them is with a so-called Bárány chair, one that simply rotates the subject in the horizontal plane for a while, after which he usually experiences disorientation. (Bárány won the Nobel prize for this invention and for his research into this aspect of human physiology: the role of the inner ear in maintaining balance.) Try this with a common or garden-variety office chair, putting on a blindfold and then having someone whirl you around. Stopping the chair usually results in the blindfolded subject being certain that he's now whirling around in the opposite direction, because that's what the fluid in part of his vestibular system is telling him.
Another easy way to induce disorientation is to use this childish trick of having the subject put his forehead on a baseball bat and then shuffle in a circle around it, afterwards trying to stand up and walk straight, when hilarity ensues.
We had a sim with a small problem with the visuals, when starting to taxy made the horizon bob up and down just a few degrees before settling down. That always hit me right in the pit of the stomach. My ears were arguing with my eyes then about who was correct: minor disorientation.
Another sort of disorientation is looking at a single-point light source in a darkened room, when the point of light will begin to move after a while. There your ears are not telling you that it's your head, not the point of light, that's moving.
It's good to know that most people do experience disorientation, that it's a normal human experience. I suppose that some people might think that it's some sort of weakness or defect that can't happen to them, so that when it does happen then it goes ignored, along with whatever the flight instruments are trying to tell him.
Last edited by chuks; 12th Apr 2016 at 10:17.
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Some interesting information from Denis Okan (S7/Globus)
Collecting bricks: repost by lx_photos
1. The first go-around (after which they diverted into the waiting area) performed due to wind shear.
2. Before the second agreed that in case of unsuccessful approach will divert to alternate with climbing to FL80.
3. The second approach manual. Vapp was set at 10 above Vref (according to wind check must be 10 lover, but it did not play a role).
4. A/C was not stabilized at 1000ft and below 1000 after a short discussion, the crew began GA.
5. During the whole approach FO, apparently, was more in the contour than PF. He constantly helped Capt., prompted about actions etc. In general, seems FO was in leading role. PF was tense, he lacked focus, for example, asking questions, if the height set to 8000 at which FO answered - look, here it is.
6. During the GA the Tower transferred them to Area frequency. At this point, FO was trying to suggest something to PF, but apparently the need for communication with the Area distracted him completely.
7. After that, the situation is unfolding rapidly, FO does nothing but tries to convey information to the PF about his incorrect actions, but the time and height was not enough.
Sorry for loose translation
Collecting bricks: repost by lx_photos
1. The first go-around (after which they diverted into the waiting area) performed due to wind shear.
2. Before the second agreed that in case of unsuccessful approach will divert to alternate with climbing to FL80.
3. The second approach manual. Vapp was set at 10 above Vref (according to wind check must be 10 lover, but it did not play a role).
4. A/C was not stabilized at 1000ft and below 1000 after a short discussion, the crew began GA.
5. During the whole approach FO, apparently, was more in the contour than PF. He constantly helped Capt., prompted about actions etc. In general, seems FO was in leading role. PF was tense, he lacked focus, for example, asking questions, if the height set to 8000 at which FO answered - look, here it is.
6. During the GA the Tower transferred them to Area frequency. At this point, FO was trying to suggest something to PF, but apparently the need for communication with the Area distracted him completely.
7. After that, the situation is unfolding rapidly, FO does nothing but tries to convey information to the PF about his incorrect actions, but the time and height was not enough.
Sorry for loose translation
I was RS in a Viscount simulator when LS got us inverted at 16,000'. The white on black AH did not help.
I spent the next 16,000' telling him we were inverted.
Hearing can shut down in a high stress situation. If there's no appropriate response to two communications, it's time to announce incapacitation and take over control.
Simulator sessions need to include incapacitation scenarios and discuss the subtle cases as can and does happen with disorientation.
I spent the next 16,000' telling him we were inverted.
Hearing can shut down in a high stress situation. If there's no appropriate response to two communications, it's time to announce incapacitation and take over control.
Simulator sessions need to include incapacitation scenarios and discuss the subtle cases as can and does happen with disorientation.
subtle cases as can and does happen with disorientation.
REPORT ON THE serious incident to icelandair BOEING 757
Note, in particular, the control column movements at 1.1.14.3 and 1.1.14.4 and finally, the FO saves the day at 1.1.14.5.
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Bloggs, thanks for this report. I have seen this problems in simulators. It is very easy in a simulator to pressure a crew into many problems, as I have control, as an instructor over the weather. I have seen again and again the inability of the crew to even look at the groundspeed, notice the wind and know the appropriate descend rate to stay on profile or to know if they are going to descend in time. This seems to be these days a knowledge only few knows. If you read my post, according to my estimate there is a 8/10 chance, that you are also very weak in planning a descend and also your scanning ability of instruments.
May be there is time to put pressure on training departments. Instead of paperwork audit why there is no practical audit of the training techniques in the sims by somebody competent? If the training departments need to "loose some face" so be it. It is better than loosing passengers.
Thanks Kulverstukas for your report. I think it further stresses the point, that captain was not comfortable in manual flying skills. If the report is true, he was overwhelmed and in tunnel vission. His sensory system could not even handle more info, such as being able to check a set go around altitude.
I am not making my post to make pilots feel bad. I am just stating there is an very easy solution to all of this. It is called a competent training. But how can a bad training department find out they are bad, if they have not encountered in their life good training in the past?
I was in a small flight school the other day watching instrument training in a cheap fixed simulator. It was so refreshing to see the young instructor teaching properly an instrument scan.
I guess we need a help as an industry. There must be some experienced manager, not even related to aviation, who could, based on experienced advise from capable pilots somehow overhaul the system. It is so obvious to me, that the fix would not cost the airlines more money, as they are spending them on incompetent training anyway.
But the non-flying management does not understand the problem, because the incompetent training department is not going to come to them and say they need help.
I am a captain. I do not like to be a passenger on aircraft. I know what my happen should the crew be put into a situation where manual flying competence and good airmanship is needed.
May be I need to by myself a book of "How to loose a fear of flying as a passenger" instead of trying my Don Quijote effort of overhauling the system.
And pilots are not stupid. They improve quite rapidly, if they are exposed to proper training, which is unfortunately almost non existent in airline establishment.
May be there is time to put pressure on training departments. Instead of paperwork audit why there is no practical audit of the training techniques in the sims by somebody competent? If the training departments need to "loose some face" so be it. It is better than loosing passengers.
Thanks Kulverstukas for your report. I think it further stresses the point, that captain was not comfortable in manual flying skills. If the report is true, he was overwhelmed and in tunnel vission. His sensory system could not even handle more info, such as being able to check a set go around altitude.
I am not making my post to make pilots feel bad. I am just stating there is an very easy solution to all of this. It is called a competent training. But how can a bad training department find out they are bad, if they have not encountered in their life good training in the past?
I was in a small flight school the other day watching instrument training in a cheap fixed simulator. It was so refreshing to see the young instructor teaching properly an instrument scan.
I guess we need a help as an industry. There must be some experienced manager, not even related to aviation, who could, based on experienced advise from capable pilots somehow overhaul the system. It is so obvious to me, that the fix would not cost the airlines more money, as they are spending them on incompetent training anyway.
But the non-flying management does not understand the problem, because the incompetent training department is not going to come to them and say they need help.
I am a captain. I do not like to be a passenger on aircraft. I know what my happen should the crew be put into a situation where manual flying competence and good airmanship is needed.
May be I need to by myself a book of "How to loose a fear of flying as a passenger" instead of trying my Don Quijote effort of overhauling the system.
And pilots are not stupid. They improve quite rapidly, if they are exposed to proper training, which is unfortunately almost non existent in airline establishment.
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I think it further stresses the point, that captain was not comfortable in manual flying skills. If the report is true, he was overwhelmed and in tunnel vission. His sensory system could not even handle more info, such as being able to check a set go around altitude.