Virgin Atlantic flight from London to NY returns after pilot hurt in laser incident
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First off - wish the pilot a full and speedy recovery.
What I don't quite get here is:
- a/c at 8000ft
- climbing, so deck angle tilted upwards (unless they were held level by ATC)
How does a laser beam get into the cockpit?
Only thing I can think of is through the side window. Could even have triggered the pilot in question to look out after seeing some strange light in peripheral vision.
In any case, this must have been an exceptionally powerful laser - let's hope whoever did this is caught asap and dealt with accordingly.
What I don't quite get here is:
- a/c at 8000ft
- climbing, so deck angle tilted upwards (unless they were held level by ATC)
How does a laser beam get into the cockpit?
Only thing I can think of is through the side window. Could even have triggered the pilot in question to look out after seeing some strange light in peripheral vision.
In any case, this must have been an exceptionally powerful laser - let's hope whoever did this is caught asap and dealt with accordingly.
Perhaps, in the spirit of good problem solving, they took advice from all possible relevant well informed sources including Medlink or similar (or even PPRuNe armchair experts) before coming to the best solution.
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When we used to layover in Shanghai, while having dinner at a table outside near the sidewalk, street urchins would come by and try to sell us powerful green_lasers which they proudly demonstrated by lighting a match with.
Scary stuff...
Scary stuff...
Last edited by wanabee777; 15th Feb 2016 at 08:35.
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I'm sure the pilot that was blinded by the l@ser may have felt some discomfort and eye irritation, but dumping thousands of pounds worth of fuel into the environment and inconveniencing hundreds of passengers strikes me as gross incompetence on behalf of the flight crew.
The pilot did not mention a third crew-member when asked by ATC whether he was single-pilot, he simply said that the injured crew-member was fit to perform his monitoring duties.
That's a little odd. In my opinion, if there are only two pilots available and one is unfit to be pilot flying by virtue of an injury, that is a single-pilot operation, no matter how much 'assistance' the injured pilot could give in normal operations.
In our airline, if a pilot were to pass out but recover, apparently fully fit to continue, a Mayday and diversion would still be required - just in case.
Naturally, I know what I'd do and I am conscious of what common-sense dictates in these circumstances, but rules is rules...
That's a little odd. In my opinion, if there are only two pilots available and one is unfit to be pilot flying by virtue of an injury, that is a single-pilot operation, no matter how much 'assistance' the injured pilot could give in normal operations.
In our airline, if a pilot were to pass out but recover, apparently fully fit to continue, a Mayday and diversion would still be required - just in case.
Naturally, I know what I'd do and I am conscious of what common-sense dictates in these circumstances, but rules is rules...
Permanently or temporarily incapacitated? To leap to either conclusion without expert knowledge may not be particularly wise. Perhaps an early landing may not have been the best course of action when time may have led to recovery, I don't know, I wasn't there and I'm not an expert in this matter. Although, having been illuminated by a laser at night on approach into Manchester (with no serious affect) I did some amateur research into the topic.
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I find all these posts writing off the crew as totally disgusting. You don't get to fly UK airliners, never mind large UK airliners by chance. If the pilot was hit by a laser, bad enough that your eye is hurting and you can no longer carry out your duties then you are incapacitated. The QRH on the aircraft I fly says to declare an emergency immediately for a pilot Incap.
So returning to LHR, instead of taking an A340 across the Atlantic and in to JFK seems a hugely appropriate decision. I'm sure one taken after speaking to ops and some Medlink equivalent.
For those calling the crew incompetent or criticising their decision to not continue to JFK, unless you were on the aircraft, directly involved in the decision making process, take yourself back to the shed armchair to continue working on the airfix kit.
So returning to LHR, instead of taking an A340 across the Atlantic and in to JFK seems a hugely appropriate decision. I'm sure one taken after speaking to ops and some Medlink equivalent.
For those calling the crew incompetent or criticising their decision to not continue to JFK, unless you were on the aircraft, directly involved in the decision making process, take yourself back to the shed armchair to continue working on the airfix kit.
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Gouli
Not sure it's your place to make assumptions on whether the crew turned back because they had an axe to grind ! I'm assuming they carried out a DRA which resulted in them turning back possibly based on the logic that if the other pilot fell ill they could possibly have problems further into the flight . Love it when so called experts start spouting utter rubbish about professional flight crew on here
Not sure it's your place to make assumptions on whether the crew turned back because they had an axe to grind ! I'm assuming they carried out a DRA which resulted in them turning back possibly based on the logic that if the other pilot fell ill they could possibly have problems further into the flight . Love it when so called experts start spouting utter rubbish about professional flight crew on here
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The laser doesn't need to be shone in from the front, the humans natural reaction when catching a light source in the peripheral vision is to glance toward the source of the light. Most laser reports have the light source to the left or right of track.
A laser pointer won't cause damage to the eye given those distances as the coherence of the beam would be severely degraded by both atmospheric effects and distance. It would just be a distraction and a dazzle.
Unfortunately there has been an explosion in the numbers of high powered lasers on the market, readily available. Not only are some of these things between 100-1000 times more powerful than what is legally allowed in the UK the beam intensity and spread are hardly affected at such distances.
These things can be weapons.
Many years ago I was dazzled by a strong light source from a Chinese Destroyer in the South China Sea. It was a long discussion back at base as to whether or not the act by the ship was to be considered a hostile act.
Personally I think the crew made the correct decision in returning to home base if the affected crew member felt he was capable enough of operating the PNF duties for the relatively short duration of the return flight.
A laser pointer won't cause damage to the eye given those distances as the coherence of the beam would be severely degraded by both atmospheric effects and distance. It would just be a distraction and a dazzle.
Unfortunately there has been an explosion in the numbers of high powered lasers on the market, readily available. Not only are some of these things between 100-1000 times more powerful than what is legally allowed in the UK the beam intensity and spread are hardly affected at such distances.
These things can be weapons.
Many years ago I was dazzled by a strong light source from a Chinese Destroyer in the South China Sea. It was a long discussion back at base as to whether or not the act by the ship was to be considered a hostile act.
Personally I think the crew made the correct decision in returning to home base if the affected crew member felt he was capable enough of operating the PNF duties for the relatively short duration of the return flight.
This is an hysterical overreaction considering that the aircraft was already out past the west coast of Eire before turning back.
The flight continued long enough for the pilots to properly assess the extent of the injury, and in discussion with VA Operations, the implications of carrying on.
Fortunately your comfortable armchair speculation had no part in those decisions.
Last edited by Sallyann1234; 15th Feb 2016 at 10:28. Reason: access > assess
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And probably influenced by decisions from Ops control who dont want an aircraft stuck across the pond with only one pilot to fly it back.
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Having a green/red blob in front of your vision, still apparent after a few mins, is very disconcerting and certainly makes you wonder if any permanent damage has been done. Thoughts of loss of licence livelihood etc, not the best idea to continue. Medlink would have had an input too e.g. give it 10 mins & see (excuse pun) if impairment is still noticeable.
As for looking out the window, um you don;t have to lean over and look down to see the ground. A laser will easily shine into the cockpit from the side, the side screens are quite big.
imho the crew didn't have much choice than to return & get medical help.
What wattage was the laser then ? Difficult to tell from an airliner cockpit.
As for looking out the window, um you don;t have to lean over and look down to see the ground. A laser will easily shine into the cockpit from the side, the side screens are quite big.
imho the crew didn't have much choice than to return & get medical help.
What wattage was the laser then ? Difficult to tell from an airliner cockpit.
are you suggesting that picking up a replacement pilot for the onward/return flight from JFK would be a good enough reason for a turnback,
Without commenting specifically on the Virgin incident
At least one operator/authority has a rule that a reduction of the flight crew compliment to below the basic level ( e.g from 2 to 1).
1. Is treated as an emergency.
2. Requires a PAN call.
3. Is usually a "land as soon as is safely possible at a suitable airfield" (taking into account that it might be safer if operating single pilot to divert into a familiar airfield rather than a nearer unfamiliar airfield.)
Commercial considerations don't enter into it.
Hope that helps.
For those people doubting whether lasers are powerful enough to do you damage, it is possible to buy 3-5W lasers over the web and there is very little to stop them being imported into the UK or elsewhere. The limit here is 1mW (some countries allow 5mW) but the problem is quality at build. Just because it says 1mW on the tin does not mean it only produces 1mW - a pointer tested after it caused a permanent retinal burn to a child came in at 70mW. A 5W laser will be visible from 30+ nautical miles.
As for injury or otherwise, Fahd Quhill, the consultant ophthalmologist who wrote the article referred to in Tourist's post, has photographs of the retina of the pilot injured at LHR which show a clear laser burn. He believes the pilot was telling the truth about how he came to be injured and I don't understand why anyone would doubt him either.
For reference, the police will treat laser dazzle as an injury, albeit a temporary one, which makes the crime ABH. A permanent injury would be classed as GBH. Regardless, the laser attack was an offence under the ANO. The other thing people might want to know about laser injuries is that the disruption to vision will be immediate but can get worse in the following minutes, and it can also be some time before it becomes apparent the effects of (eg) dazzle are taking longer to fade (individuals differ in their response). The same is true of pain/discomfort from an eye injury. And if you have ever had an eye injury you will know that it is very distracting.
I would have made the same decision as the VAA captain - but then I am sat in my armchair with plenty of hindsight and both eyes working.
As for injury or otherwise, Fahd Quhill, the consultant ophthalmologist who wrote the article referred to in Tourist's post, has photographs of the retina of the pilot injured at LHR which show a clear laser burn. He believes the pilot was telling the truth about how he came to be injured and I don't understand why anyone would doubt him either.
For reference, the police will treat laser dazzle as an injury, albeit a temporary one, which makes the crime ABH. A permanent injury would be classed as GBH. Regardless, the laser attack was an offence under the ANO. The other thing people might want to know about laser injuries is that the disruption to vision will be immediate but can get worse in the following minutes, and it can also be some time before it becomes apparent the effects of (eg) dazzle are taking longer to fade (individuals differ in their response). The same is true of pain/discomfort from an eye injury. And if you have ever had an eye injury you will know that it is very distracting.
I would have made the same decision as the VAA captain - but then I am sat in my armchair with plenty of hindsight and both eyes working.
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Just to let you know that the captain of that flight is a past moderator of this forum and has read this thread, and is fascinated that some people seem to have a supernatural ability to second-guess his actions with the certainty that they are right and he is wrong. A rendezvous behind a bike shed of his choice has been suggested...
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Sky news is reporting the incident took place 'shortly after take off'.
If laser damage to the eye is anything like arc eye from welding,the effects grow after a while.from personal experience!!!
If laser damage to the eye is anything like arc eye from welding,the effects grow after a while.from personal experience!!!
A rendezvous behind a bike shed of his choice has been suggested...
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The only qualifications G0ULI has is a lapsed PPL. Not only does he spout off a complete load of rubbish based on ZERO knowledge (hence the zero in his user name) but comes close to committing slander in the process!