Virgin Atlantic flight from London to NY returns after pilot hurt in laser incident
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I'd like to thank everyone for their interest in this topic. While some of the submissions have been a bit beyond what is reasonable and realistic, both publicly and privately I've received some really useful stuff - and some of it will, as a result, end up in front of those who make, or who influence, policy. That's a result as far as I'm concerned.
Today we said a final goodbye to one of the greatest Ppruners, Don Daines. Don bust every sinew he had to make sure that the best of our Wannabes got an opportunity to fly, and he and we put real cash into that project. I know that he'd have been horrified that people were trying to externally affect pilots in the air.
Today we said a final goodbye to one of the greatest Ppruners, Don Daines. Don bust every sinew he had to make sure that the best of our Wannabes got an opportunity to fly, and he and we put real cash into that project. I know that he'd have been horrified that people were trying to externally affect pilots in the air.
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Originally Posted by Matelo
They do, however, its normally attached to something.
that's a laser guided munition, it follows a laser designated target, it does not have a laser itself, the designator is the laser, like these:
or
If an aircraft is at 7000/8000 feet, how is one able to 'fire' a beam into the cockpit from ground level ?
I bought a green low power unit for my photography, mainly distance target acquisition for wildfowl and astronomy; I would never dream of putting one in the direction of an aircraft, but at 30 miles would I know it was there ?
I bought a green low power unit for my photography, mainly distance target acquisition for wildfowl and astronomy; I would never dream of putting one in the direction of an aircraft, but at 30 miles would I know it was there ?
You might look at the flight radar app and have an idea of where an aircraft might be but high level strikes are just luck. There is a lot of hurumphing about lasers and their effects but generally they are of no significance. Not saying so in this case, its unusual in that it is red and I am sure that high power equipment can be obtained. But when I see a flash I just look away and have never experienced and ill effects, my FO was apparently dazzled for a short while.
Capt Scribble
Do you not see any contradiction between "they are of no significance" and "my FO was apparently dazzled for a short while"? And if they are of no significance, why is it an offence under the ANO and why have there been prosecutions for endangerment (article 137) as well as the summary offence (article 222) of directing or shining a light at any aircraft in flight so as to dazzle or distract the pilot? Why is it OK to limit someone's vision for any period of time at all, especially when flying?
Dazzle can be classed as a temporary injury (= ABH); some people who have been struck by lasers have had dazzle effects which have lasted for several hours. Some are more susceptible to this than others, and it will also depend on laser power and proximity. Injury symptoms beyond the initial dazzle can also develop with time - this is the same effect as with sunburn, where exposure to the sun and finding out how badly you have burnt yourself can be hours apart.
I am pleased to know you suffered no ill effects from your laser strikes (others have not been lucky) and hope you reported them as required by the MOR scheme and now by EC 376/2014.
Do you not see any contradiction between "they are of no significance" and "my FO was apparently dazzled for a short while"? And if they are of no significance, why is it an offence under the ANO and why have there been prosecutions for endangerment (article 137) as well as the summary offence (article 222) of directing or shining a light at any aircraft in flight so as to dazzle or distract the pilot? Why is it OK to limit someone's vision for any period of time at all, especially when flying?
Dazzle can be classed as a temporary injury (= ABH); some people who have been struck by lasers have had dazzle effects which have lasted for several hours. Some are more susceptible to this than others, and it will also depend on laser power and proximity. Injury symptoms beyond the initial dazzle can also develop with time - this is the same effect as with sunburn, where exposure to the sun and finding out how badly you have burnt yourself can be hours apart.
I am pleased to know you suffered no ill effects from your laser strikes (others have not been lucky) and hope you reported them as required by the MOR scheme and now by EC 376/2014.
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I am in no way saying that its not possible or that the miscreants should not be "seen to" but......
Some little scrote with a hand held laser pointer is going to be lucky to get his beam the length of a football field. Even if he does manage it, he has to be in the right place with the right elevation with a very steady hand to actually hit someone on the head in the cockpit when the pilots are sat back from the windows.
Even more lucky to get them in the eye which, as has already been pointed out, has a diameter of less than 10mm.
So from a distance of a couple of miles, allowing for the angle they would need to be at, they would need a military grade guidance laser on a steady tripod.
There is more to this story than is being published. Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a laser spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.
That said, as I said at the beginning. The scrotes that shine the lasers at anything other than their own eyes or a whiteboard need to be "dealt with".
Some little scrote with a hand held laser pointer is going to be lucky to get his beam the length of a football field. Even if he does manage it, he has to be in the right place with the right elevation with a very steady hand to actually hit someone on the head in the cockpit when the pilots are sat back from the windows.
Even more lucky to get them in the eye which, as has already been pointed out, has a diameter of less than 10mm.
So from a distance of a couple of miles, allowing for the angle they would need to be at, they would need a military grade guidance laser on a steady tripod.
There is more to this story than is being published. Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a laser spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.
That said, as I said at the beginning. The scrotes that shine the lasers at anything other than their own eyes or a whiteboard need to be "dealt with".
The link in G-CPTN's Post #204 includes the statement that:
"A court heard he bought the pen online from China to entertain his dog but shone it into the sky after becoming bored of waiting for a takeaway."
indicates that the accused has even greater Darwinian potential both if he gets so bored so quickly, and does not realise that "entertaining" his dog in this way can lead to very distressing behaviour with the dog reacting even to shadows and flashes of sunlight.
Jack
"A court heard he bought the pen online from China to entertain his dog but shone it into the sky after becoming bored of waiting for a takeaway."
indicates that the accused has even greater Darwinian potential both if he gets so bored so quickly, and does not realise that "entertaining" his dog in this way can lead to very distressing behaviour with the dog reacting even to shadows and flashes of sunlight.
Jack
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I am in no way saying that its not possible or that the miscreants should not be "seen to" but......
Some little scrote with a hand held laser pointer is going to be lucky to get his beam the length of a football field. Even if he does manage it, he has to be in the right place with the right elevation with a very steady hand to actually hit someone on the head in the cockpit when the pilots are sat back from the windows.
Even more lucky to get them in the eye which, as has already been pointed out, has a diameter of less than 10mm.
So from a distance of a couple of miles, allowing for the angle they would need to be at, they would need a military grade guidance laser on a steady tripod.
There is more to this story than is being published. Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a laser spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.
That said, as I said at the beginning. The scrotes that shine the lasers at anything other than their own eyes or a whiteboard need to be "dealt with".
Some little scrote with a hand held laser pointer is going to be lucky to get his beam the length of a football field. Even if he does manage it, he has to be in the right place with the right elevation with a very steady hand to actually hit someone on the head in the cockpit when the pilots are sat back from the windows.
Even more lucky to get them in the eye which, as has already been pointed out, has a diameter of less than 10mm.
So from a distance of a couple of miles, allowing for the angle they would need to be at, they would need a military grade guidance laser on a steady tripod.
There is more to this story than is being published. Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a laser spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.
That said, as I said at the beginning. The scrotes that shine the lasers at anything other than their own eyes or a whiteboard need to be "dealt with".
I have. I've never claimed to be hit directly in the eye, because I don't think I have, but I have been targeted and it can be excruciatingly painful and temporarily blinding just having it hit the cockpit windows, never mind specifically targeting you directly in the eye.
Plus all it takes is a wave in the general direction for a minute or so and you'd probably get at least a few dangerously distracting flashes.
These bigger more powerful handheld lasers are more like full-size Maglights than the little tiny pointers most of us are probably used to from use in presentations... it's probably much easier to hold steady or rest against something in order to make it more accurate
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Bbrown1664
"Certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported". That's rather a sweeping generalisation. What facts do you base that on?
Accusing pilots of "swinging the lead" is very disappointing indeed based on your opinion alone. I certainly hope you're never put in the position where you're dazzled, confused and in pain all by the hands of some IQ challenged miscreant.
"Certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported". That's rather a sweeping generalisation. What facts do you base that on?
Accusing pilots of "swinging the lead" is very disappointing indeed based on your opinion alone. I certainly hope you're never put in the position where you're dazzled, confused and in pain all by the hands of some IQ challenged miscreant.
1. Reporting. We know numbers are less than reported because BALPA had a survey done which showed half their members had been hit at least once and that only about 2/3 of the attacks were actually MOR'd. Air Pilots came up with similar stats. Don't forget half the CAT traffic in the UK is from overseas, and they report to their own NAA; if they don't call it to ATC it doesn't show on the UK stats.
2. If you have seen a laser flash, it has by definition hit you in the eye. An oblique laser strike that you perceive in your peripheral vision will hit the relevant portion of your retina and if it is strong enough, that is where you will have your injury. If you were looking at it directly, then it will (if strong enough) affect your central vision.
3. Test purchases have been examined by specialist labs in the last few months. Result, there is at least one 3W hand-held device in the UK, bought easily over the Internet and fortunately in the care of a responsible organisation.
2. If you have seen a laser flash, it has by definition hit you in the eye. An oblique laser strike that you perceive in your peripheral vision will hit the relevant portion of your retina and if it is strong enough, that is where you will have your injury. If you were looking at it directly, then it will (if strong enough) affect your central vision.
3. Test purchases have been examined by specialist labs in the last few months. Result, there is at least one 3W hand-held device in the UK, bought easily over the Internet and fortunately in the care of a responsible organisation.
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Mad Monk
Do you realize that a laser beam can blind birds as equally, it can, humans. Whilst trying to target a bird, the beam needs only a little time to damage (permanently)-the eye.
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bbrown1664
Are you, or have you ever been, a pilot?
If yes, what category of pilot (airline, helicopter, PPL etc) and when?
I ask because your profile says you are an ex-Avionics Engineer and now an "IT Consultant" and I wonder upon what expertise/experience you see fit to suggest that "some pilots are swinging the lead" and to accuse others of lying.
Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a l@ser spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.
Are you, or have you ever been, a pilot?
If yes, what category of pilot (airline, helicopter, PPL etc) and when?
I ask because your profile says you are an ex-Avionics Engineer and now an "IT Consultant" and I wonder upon what expertise/experience you see fit to suggest that "some pilots are swinging the lead" and to accuse others of lying.
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Whether I have ever been a pilot is not relevant to the topic though as an avionics engineer and IT engineer I have had the need to play with fibre optics and lasers on a professional level.
The point I was making, and still stands is that the chances of being hit in the head, let alone the eye, are slim.
Whilst you may see laser beams cutting through the air, the chance of it hitting you in the eye still remain slim.
I am not in any way saying that these incidents do not happen. I just feel they are not as prolific (in terms of hits to the eyes) as some people are making out.
As I said before, the scrotes (for those that don't understand this word, this means the little gits on the ground with the lasers) should not be pointing them at you lot at the pointy end, or indeed anywhere other than their own eyes and anyone found guilty of doing so, should be punished.
The point I was making, and still stands is that the chances of being hit in the head, let alone the eye, are slim.
Whilst you may see laser beams cutting through the air, the chance of it hitting you in the eye still remain slim.
I am not in any way saying that these incidents do not happen. I just feel they are not as prolific (in terms of hits to the eyes) as some people are making out.
As I said before, the scrotes (for those that don't understand this word, this means the little gits on the ground with the lasers) should not be pointing them at you lot at the pointy end, or indeed anywhere other than their own eyes and anyone found guilty of doing so, should be punished.
bbrown1664
It would seem from your last post that you don't understand how eyes work. If the beam is visible to you, you are detecting light dissipated from the beam by diffraction or reflection. If you get the beam 'end-on' full in the eye, you get the highest amount of energy from it (IR and visible) and it will be focused onto your retina whether you like it or not. Beam dispersion will mean you don't cop all the energy in the beam, but if the beam hits the flight deck (and it often does) then you can expect one or both pilots to be affected. It is worse in helicopters.
The other factor is dazzle, which can come from a direct hit but also from reflections of canopies, windshields, instruments etc. When the flight deck lights up in that way, it is also very distracting. The pilots here will tell you that distraction is a frequent component of the causal chain ending in accidents or serious incidents.
I hope that explains it. If you are having trouble with the concept, I am sure Mr Darwin would endorse you having a play with a mirror and your own laser pointer.
The other factor is dazzle, which can come from a direct hit but also from reflections of canopies, windshields, instruments etc. When the flight deck lights up in that way, it is also very distracting. The pilots here will tell you that distraction is a frequent component of the causal chain ending in accidents or serious incidents.
I hope that explains it. If you are having trouble with the concept, I am sure Mr Darwin would endorse you having a play with a mirror and your own laser pointer.
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Read the various posts on the other thread from people who work with lasers for a living.
Hand held lasers distracting to pilots of an airliner at height, certainly.
Hand held lasers damaging eyes of pilots of an airliner at height? I think not.
