Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

Virgin Atlantic flight from London to NY returns after pilot hurt in laser incident

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Virgin Atlantic flight from London to NY returns after pilot hurt in laser incident

Old 19th Feb 2016, 01:09
  #201 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 1998
Location: Southwest Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'd like to thank everyone for their interest in this topic. While some of the submissions have been a bit beyond what is reasonable and realistic, both publicly and privately I've received some really useful stuff - and some of it will, as a result, end up in front of those who make, or who influence, policy. That's a result as far as I'm concerned.

Today we said a final goodbye to one of the greatest Ppruners, Don Daines. Don bust every sinew he had to make sure that the best of our Wannabes got an opportunity to fly, and he and we put real cash into that project. I know that he'd have been horrified that people were trying to externally affect pilots in the air.
scroggs is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2016, 21:08
  #202 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 78
Posts: 1,873
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Some progress . . .

Man weeps as he is jailed for shining [email protected] pen at police helicopter - Mirror Online
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2016, 08:49
  #203 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: England
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Matelo
They do, however, its normally attached to something.

err... NO.

that's a [email protected] guided munition, it follows a [email protected] designated target, it does not have a [email protected] itself, the designator is the [email protected], like these:



or

Scuffers is offline  
Old 22nd Feb 2016, 23:44
  #204 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Brussel
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If an aircraft is at 7000/8000 feet, how is one able to 'fire' a beam into the cockpit from ground level ?
I bought a green low power unit for my photography, mainly distance target acquisition for wildfowl and astronomy; I would never dream of putting one in the direction of an aircraft, but at 30 miles would I know it was there ?
Mad Monk is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 17:05
  #205 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: England
Posts: 409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
You might look at the flight radar app and have an idea of where an aircraft might be but high level strikes are just luck. There is a lot of hurumphing about [email protected] and their effects but generally they are of no significance. Not saying so in this case, its unusual in that it is red and I am sure that high power equipment can be obtained. But when I see a flash I just look away and have never experienced and ill effects, my FO was apparently dazzled for a short while.
Capt Scribble is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 17:40
  #206 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London
Age: 66
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Capt Scribble

Do you not see any contradiction between "they are of no significance" and "my FO was apparently dazzled for a short while"? And if they are of no significance, why is it an offence under the ANO and why have there been prosecutions for endangerment (article 137) as well as the summary offence (article 222) of directing or shining a light at any aircraft in flight so as to dazzle or distract the pilot? Why is it OK to limit someone's vision for any period of time at all, especially when flying?

Dazzle can be classed as a temporary injury (= ABH); some people who have been struck by [email protected] have had dazzle effects which have lasted for several hours. Some are more susceptible to this than others, and it will also depend on [email protected] power and proximity. Injury symptoms beyond the initial dazzle can also develop with time - this is the same effect as with sunburn, where exposure to the sun and finding out how badly you have burnt yourself can be hours apart.

I am pleased to know you suffered no ill effects from your [email protected] strikes (others have not been lucky) and hope you reported them as required by the MOR scheme and now by EC 376/2014.
Fortissimo is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 17:57
  #207 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I am in no way saying that its not possible or that the miscreants should not be "seen to" but......

Some little scrote with a hand held [email protected] pointer is going to be lucky to get his beam the length of a football field. Even if he does manage it, he has to be in the right place with the right elevation with a very steady hand to actually hit someone on the head in the cockpit when the pilots are sat back from the windows.
Even more lucky to get them in the eye which, as has already been pointed out, has a diameter of less than 10mm.

So from a distance of a couple of miles, allowing for the angle they would need to be at, they would need a military grade guidance [email protected] on a steady tripod.


There is more to this story than is being published. Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a [email protected] spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.

That said, as I said at the beginning. The scrotes that shine the [email protected] at anything other than their own eyes or a whiteboard need to be "dealt with".
bbrown1664 is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 19:16
  #208 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Bristol,UK
Posts: 225
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Even if it is a million to one shot don't forget there are more than a million little sh1ts out there.
under_exposed is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 19:37
  #209 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Location: Location!
Posts: 2,199
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
The link in G-CPTN's Post #204 includes the statement that:

"A court heard he bought the pen online from China to entertain his dog but shone it into the sky after becoming bored of waiting for a takeaway."

indicates that the accused has even greater Darwinian potential both if he gets so bored so quickly, and does not realise that "entertaining" his dog in this way can lead to very distressing behaviour with the dog reacting even to shadows and flashes of sunlight.

Jack
Union Jack is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 19:41
  #210 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 3,139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by bbrown1664 View Post
I am in no way saying that its not possible or that the miscreants should not be "seen to" but......

Some little scrote with a hand held [email protected] pointer is going to be lucky to get his beam the length of a football field. Even if he does manage it, he has to be in the right place with the right elevation with a very steady hand to actually hit someone on the head in the cockpit when the pilots are sat back from the windows.
Even more lucky to get them in the eye which, as has already been pointed out, has a diameter of less than 10mm.

So from a distance of a couple of miles, allowing for the angle they would need to be at, they would need a military grade guidance [email protected] on a steady tripod.


There is more to this story than is being published. Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a [email protected] spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.

That said, as I said at the beginning. The scrotes that shine the [email protected] at anything other than their own eyes or a whiteboard need to be "dealt with".
Have you ever been hit by a [email protected]?

I have. I've never claimed to be hit directly in the eye, because I don't think I have, but I have been targeted and it can be excruciatingly painful and temporarily blinding just having it hit the cockpit windows, never mind specifically targeting you directly in the eye.


Plus all it takes is a wave in the general direction for a minute or so and you'd probably get at least a few dangerously distracting flashes.



These bigger more powerful handheld [email protected] are more like full-size Maglights than the little tiny pointers most of us are probably used to from use in presentations... it's probably much easier to hold steady or rest against something in order to make it more accurate
LlamaFarmer is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 22:11
  #211 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: uk
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bbrown1664

"Certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported". That's rather a sweeping generalisation. What facts do you base that on?

Accusing pilots of "swinging the lead" is very disappointing indeed based on your opinion alone. I certainly hope you're never put in the position where you're dazzled, confused and in pain all by the hands of some IQ challenged miscreant.
Chris Griffin is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2016, 23:22
  #212 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London
Age: 66
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
1. Reporting. We know numbers are less than reported because BALPA had a survey done which showed half their members had been hit at least once and that only about 2/3 of the attacks were actually MOR'd. Air Pilots came up with similar stats. Don't forget half the CAT traffic in the UK is from overseas, and they report to their own NAA; if they don't call it to ATC it doesn't show on the UK stats.

2. If you have seen a [email protected] flash, it has by definition hit you in the eye. An oblique [email protected] strike that you perceive in your peripheral vision will hit the relevant portion of your retina and if it is strong enough, that is where you will have your injury. If you were looking at it directly, then it will (if strong enough) affect your central vision.

3. Test purchases have been examined by specialist labs in the last few months. Result, there is at least one 3W hand-held device in the UK, bought easily over the Internet and fortunately in the care of a responsible organisation.
Fortissimo is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 00:06
  #213 (permalink)  
Resident insomniac
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: N54 58 34 W02 01 21
Age: 78
Posts: 1,873
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
BA flight targeted by high-powered [email protected] in second attack near Heathrow in 10 days.

Man questioned over [email protected] attack on police helicopter (From Worcester News).

Laser attack suspects caught on camera and arrested by Police.
G-CPTN is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 00:20
  #214 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Mad Monk

Do you realize that a [email protected] beam can blind birds as equally, it can, humans. Whilst trying to target a bird, the beam needs only a little time to damage (permanently)-the eye.
pjac is online now  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 08:34
  #215 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
bbrown1664

Some of it, unfortunately looks like some pilots are swinging the lead a little. Maybe they did see a [email protected] spot in the cockpit but it is almost impossible to actually have been hit in the eyes with it. It certainly doesn't happen for real as often as it is being reported.

Are you, or have you ever been, a pilot?
If yes, what category of pilot (airline, helicopter, PPL etc) and when?

I ask because your profile says you are an ex-Avionics Engineer and now an "IT Consultant" and I wonder upon what expertise/experience you see fit to suggest that "some pilots are swinging the lead" and to accuse others of lying.
Flying Lawyer is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 08:45
  #216 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Gatwick
Posts: 115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whether I have ever been a pilot is not relevant to the topic though as an avionics engineer and IT engineer I have had the need to play with fibre optics and [email protected] on a professional level.

The point I was making, and still stands is that the chances of being hit in the head, let alone the eye, are slim.
Whilst you may see [email protected] beams cutting through the air, the chance of it hitting you in the eye still remain slim.

I am not in any way saying that these incidents do not happen. I just feel they are not as prolific (in terms of hits to the eyes) as some people are making out.

As I said before, the scrotes (for those that don't understand this word, this means the little gits on the ground with the [email protected]) should not be pointing them at you lot at the pointy end, or indeed anywhere other than their own eyes and anyone found guilty of doing so, should be punished.
bbrown1664 is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 08:49
  #217 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: London
Posts: 2,916
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Whether I have ever been a pilot is not relevant to the topic.

Is that a No?
Flying Lawyer is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 09:04
  #218 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London
Age: 66
Posts: 444
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
bbrown1664

It would seem from your last post that you don't understand how eyes work. If the beam is visible to you, you are detecting light dissipated from the beam by diffraction or reflection. If you get the beam 'end-on' full in the eye, you get the highest amount of energy from it (IR and visible) and it will be focused onto your retina whether you like it or not. Beam dispersion will mean you don't cop all the energy in the beam, but if the beam hits the flight deck (and it often does) then you can expect one or both pilots to be affected. It is worse in helicopters.

The other factor is dazzle, which can come from a direct hit but also from reflections of canopies, windshields, instruments etc. When the flight deck lights up in that way, it is also very distracting. The pilots here will tell you that distraction is a frequent component of the causal chain ending in accidents or serious incidents.

I hope that explains it. If you are having trouble with the concept, I am sure Mr Darwin would endorse you having a play with a mirror and your own [email protected] pointer.
Fortissimo is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 09:18
  #219 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Fortissimo View Post
It would seem from your last post that you don't understand how eyes work.
Equally, it would seem that you don't understand how [email protected] and indeed physics works.

Read the various posts on the other thread from people who work with [email protected] for a living.
Hand held [email protected] distracting to pilots of an airliner at height, certainly.
Hand held [email protected] damaging eyes of pilots of an airliner at height? I think not.
Tourist is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2016, 09:19
  #220 (permalink)  
Gender Faculty Specialist
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Stop being so stupid, it's my turn
Posts: 1,773
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes on 1 Post
Physical eye damage isn't the only issue.
Chesty Morgan is online now  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.