Ryanair & Positioning Pilots

[PENKO]

Some of you here would even argue that a captain on a cruise ship should be punished, or at least heavily taxed for
a. being provided accommodation
b. allowed to travel for free when not on duty
c. being on his vessel in his spare time without accruing duty time, yet using his i.d. to order lunch!

The more I think of it, the more I envy said captain!

[wiggy]

Out of interest which "familiar group" is that?

[4468]

Laying aside the alleged rights and the wrongs

You're laying them aside. I'm just pointing them out. For anyone who doesn't wish to bury their head in the sand.

No arrogance, schadenfreude or stones required.

PENKO

Hold on guys. There are tens if not hundreds of commuters who pass through security, identify themselves as commuters and follow all the rules as laid down BLACK AND WHITE in their operations manuals, which are signed by the managers and countersigned by all the relevant authorities. Why on earth some of you guys insist that it is all some sort of clandestine operation is beyond me

Are these commuters on duty, or are they ticketed passengers. Either is fine, but to attempt to be both, to take advantage of the 'pros' of each,and the 'cons' of neither, most definitely is, as you yourself say, clandestine. A good description in fact.

[UAV689]

Really sad to see pilots stirring up a storm in tea cup for their contemporaries. No wonder the industry as gone to pot when we all try and get each other in the brown stuff.

So sad.

[SD.]

The pros and cons of 'commuting' is a complete and utter red herring here! These are the issues that will land people neck deep in the brown stuff:

1) Dressing in uniform, and using an airside ID, to access the secure area whilst NOT ON DUTY, is both a security breach and I'm fairly sure, in the UK is breaking the law!

2) Receiving a Benefit in kind, (free travel) without declaring it for tax purposes, is tax evasion.

3) Anyone listed as supernumary crew, is engaged ON DUTY which must count towards FTL limits. Failing to declare such duty time is definitely breaking the law, and is wreckless.

Which category are these FR pilots in?

As a FR CONTRACTOR, they fit in to all 3. A contractor may be rostered away from his own base (and some find themselves out of base 50% of the time) others are left alone to operate in their assigned base. All positioning at the behest of the operator is not recorded and it's down to the individual to position to the base. This could be a drive from STN to MAN, or a 3 legged position to the arse end of nowhere. That ever so famous 5/4 roster pattern becomes a 7/2 if the connections don't work.

As a FR EMPLOYEE. All out of base work, the deadhead flights are recorded as duty, ticketed and HOTAC paid for by the company.

Really sad to see pilots stirring up a storm in tea cup for their contemporaries. No wonder the industry as gone to pot when we all try and get each other in the brown stuff.

I see this thread as a means of highlighting how certain legislation is circumnavigated by airlines.

[LlamaFarmer]

Originally Posted by 4468

The pros and cons of 'commuting' is a complete and utter red herring here! These are the issues that will land people neck deep in the brown stuff:

1) Dressing in uniform, and using an airside ID, to access the secure area whilst NOT ON DUTY, is both a security breach and I'm fairly sure, in the UK is breaking the law!

2) Receiving a Benefit in kind, (free travel) without declaring it for tax purposes, is tax evasion.

3) Anyone listed as supernumary crew, is engaged ON DUTY which must count towards FTL limits. Failing to declare such duty time is definitely breaking the law, and is wreckless.

Which category are these FR pilots in?

This can't possibly end well!

These folks are extremely exposed!

So it's tax evasion if your company provides you with meals during your working day?

Not just an airline example but any place of employment. Free travel is no different from free lunch surely.

What about bus drivers who use their id to travel around the bus network for free.

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by LlamaFarmer

So it's tax evasion if your company provides you with meals during your working day?

Not just an airline example but any place of employment. Free travel is no different from free lunch surely.

What about bus drivers who use their id to travel around the bus network for free.

Careful with that, you may not like the answer too much. On the continent, yes it would be.

[captplaystation]

111boy


"Lets not question HIS motives, ( wanna be ryanair management )..."


you certainly cracked me up with that one (seems you still haven't forgiven me for my "slight" when I posted a slightly sarcastic response to your somewhat naive view of the postings on here about Arik Air some time back)

In fact the truth of the matter as regards MY motives, are as posted by

"UAV689 Really sad to see pilots stirring up a storm in tea cup for their contemporaries. No wonder the industry as gone to pot when we all try and get each other in the brown stuff.

So sad."


Indeed, tis very sad to see back-stabbing/ sh1t-stirring migrate from management into fellow line pilots. . . . . . . invidious that they are missing so many "special" aspects of life in Ryanair You couldn't make it up. . . . . . .

[4468]

Originally Posted by SD.

I see this thread as a means of highlighting how certain legislation is circumnavigated by airlines.

Thanks SD, precisely my point. Those that feel uncomfortable with the requirement to do this, need protection from their employer. FR should find an alernative solution to their rostering requirements. Those that think it's a wizard wheeze, that can only exist if it's kept in the shadows, frankly need to have the book thrown at them.

[Sallytraffic]

Under the current system a boarding card is obtained landslide from the service agent, so passing through security as pax.
It works

[PENKO]

4468, again, these procedures are written, signed and countersigned by the authorities. They are not specific to any one airline. Airports around Europe fully co-operate with these commuting procedures. I am amazed that you choose to ignore this fact.

[Tu.114]

What about bus drivers who use their id to travel around the bus network for free.

In Germany and increasingly as well in Austria, such a thing is called "geldwerter Vorteil" (roughly "advantage with monetary value"). This is indeed taxable and well noted by the taxmen.

[4468]

PENKO

Are these 'commuting' pilots on duty, or off duty?

Thanks

[RAT 5]

Really sad to see pilots stirring up a storm in tea cup for their contemporaries. No wonder the industry as gone to pot when we all try and get each other in the brown stuff.

Are these 'commuting' pilots on duty, or off duty?

This is the crux. Forget about all the blah about local agreements and using ID's. Who cares. No-one is trying to get anyone in the brown stuff. In fact it is the opposite. If you are on duty then it has be to credited and 5/3 or 5/4 means just that, not 7/2 as someone quoted. Whether you are paid for positioning is a matter for your contract and conscience; and positioning should not be commuting. But why do people want to defend working for no pay AND no duty time credit. If you do then you have put yourself in the brown stuff along with many others.

[captplaystation]

Revisiting the original post, the complaint was 3 fold.

1 , that pilots are positioning themselves around Europe at the companies behest in their own time. I have not had sight of a Contract involving "floating Contractors", but, I don't believe anyone had to sign for this in preference to being allocated a Base, and, if I remember, it attracted a higher hourly payment, and a 5/5 roster (which as many have pointed out , could easily end up as 7/2 depending where you have to get to on a particular week ). So, those that signed for it have to put up with the faffing around their choice entails, fair no ?
Other Contractors seen moving themselves around Europe in their "free time" are indeed in their free time, as they are "commuting", and choose not to live at their own base. This group I am led to believe , comprised of based contractors & normal Ryanair employees are the biggest percentage by far these days.

2 - Staff Security search points are being misused . . . . . as I stated earlier, I cannot see this floating at a Base like STN, where many of the security staff were pretty awful in the time I went through there, & would certainly not have hesitated to make cr@p for any pilot of whom they believed even a remote chance of nailing existed. I think it is unfeasible that some local arrangement has not been made here ,& at the other larger bases, too many guys going through each day for it not to be noticed.

3 - Ryanair are positioning people all over the place without counting it as duty. . . . . no, because it is no more duty than Capt Bloggs driving from Norwich to Stansted if that is his desire, & is simply "the pilot getting to work in his free time".


Now, what is so complicated about this , that it has taken 7 pages for the penny to drop for some of you ?

[T250]

So can an FR employee or anyone else for that matter confirm that there is/are local agreements between the airports in the UK and Ryanair that Ryanair staff can use staff channels and security IDs even when not on duty?

If this cannot be confirmed then the previous points still stand. Just because it potentially breaches DfT regulations and might cause you some inconvenience doesn't mean the fact and legislation can simply be ignored and swept under the carpet.

So is there local agreements or isn't there? Simple question, requires 1 word answer.

[4468]

because it is no more duty than Capt Bloggs driving from Norwich to Stansted if that is his desire, & is simply "the pilot getting to work in his free time".

Captain Bloggs driving from Stansted to Norwich, is not required to do so in uniform. Nor does he have to use his airside ID to access any restricted areas. Nor does he have to be listed as Supernumary Crew.

Is YOUR penny dropping yet??

Are these commuting pilots on duty, or off duty?

It really is a remarkably simple question. Why won't anyone answer it?

Thanks

[aerobat]

At Stansted jump seat crew have the same status as passengers and if arriving in STN must exit through customs / immigration, not VP2. There is a directors notice that is quite explicit about this.

[172_driver]

1 , that pilots are positioning themselves around Europe at the companies behest in their own time. I have not had sight of a Contract involving "floating Contractors", but, I don't believe anyone had to sign for this in preference to being allocated a Base, and, if I remember, it attracted a higher hourly payment, and a 5/5 roster (which as many have pointed out , could easily end up as 7/2 depending where you have to get to on a particular week ). So, those that signed for it have to put up with the faffing around their choice entails, fair no ?
Other Contractors seen moving themselves around Europe in their "free time" are indeed in their free time, as they are "commuting", and choose not to live at their own base. This group I am led to believe , comprised of based contractors & normal Ryanair employees are the biggest percentage by far these days.

Maybe I missed something, but did you not leave out a fairly big group - the based contractors sent out of base? It's happening right now, every day of the week, somewhere around the network. Transporting themselves around the network, sometimes up to 3 flights, traveling for 14-15 hrs, coming in on a late wave arrival for an early wave departure as operating crew. Can't argue it's not at the behest of the company.

[Wageslave]

Contrast the support of this blatantly illegal practice with the universal disbelief and condemnation when it was introduced, producing contractor's rosters that required this bizarre nomadic neither on nor off duty lifestyle some years ago, with all the same arguments about legality thrown up but ignored by the authorities (esp the authorit-IE). The whole industry was up in arms against it and no one defended it at all. Now we have descended into a situation where the very employees of the miscreant company, apparently, are trying to deny it happens or maintain it is fair and reasonable!

Its been known as a copper-bottomed fact for years that this iniquitous situation exists!

Truly, some pilots are their industry's own worst enemy to the detriment of the industry as a whole. Do these roll-over-and-die company-brainwashed wh@res have no shame?

Disgraceful. Utterly disgraceful.