Ryanair & Positioning Pilots
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Ryanair & Positioning Pilots
I have several acquaintances working for RYR who seem to spend a great deal of their time 'positioning' around Europe on their days off to get to duties rostered from foreign bases.
They seem to be able to turn up at the gate for any company flight, without a boarding card, presumably having cleared security as staff rather than as a passenger and then are automaticly allocated a jumpseat if there is not a seat available in the cabin.
There seems to be some suggestion that they are being carried as a 'supernumerary crew member'. However they appear to be a crew member who has not attended any briefing or indeed even met his fellow crew prior to boarding. He is not present for 'observation duties' and plays absolutely no part in the operation of the aircraft. So being termed supernumerary crew is an extraordinarily tenuous description.
Surely a crew-member who passes through a staff checkpoint to then be miraculously transformed into a passenger is completely circumventing UK DFT security protocols?
When positioning on a 'day off' for a rostered duty is this day then discounted for FTL purposes as a day spent on 'duties at the behest of the company' ???
How does this setup work ?
They seem to be able to turn up at the gate for any company flight, without a boarding card, presumably having cleared security as staff rather than as a passenger and then are automaticly allocated a jumpseat if there is not a seat available in the cabin.
There seems to be some suggestion that they are being carried as a 'supernumerary crew member'. However they appear to be a crew member who has not attended any briefing or indeed even met his fellow crew prior to boarding. He is not present for 'observation duties' and plays absolutely no part in the operation of the aircraft. So being termed supernumerary crew is an extraordinarily tenuous description.
Surely a crew-member who passes through a staff checkpoint to then be miraculously transformed into a passenger is completely circumventing UK DFT security protocols?
When positioning on a 'day off' for a rostered duty is this day then discounted for FTL purposes as a day spent on 'duties at the behest of the company' ???
How does this setup work ?
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It DOES work, so, instead of coming on here stirring up something that works pretty well for the hordes of pilots commuting, usually because they cannot get a home base &/or are unwilling to relocate to the base given . . . . . can't you just put a sock in it & leave well alone 
I have reason to question your motives here, and doubt they could be in any way intended to be for the benefit of those involved (which I would hazard a guess you aren't, & if you are , did you never hear the Anglo Saxon saying "don't s**t in your own nest"
)
I have reason to question your motives here, and doubt they could be in any way intended to be for the benefit of those involved (which I would hazard a guess you aren't, & if you are , did you never hear the Anglo Saxon saying "don't s**t in your own nest"
)
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Magplug;
Let me educate and enlighten you on both your lack of regulatory knowledge and compassion for those less fortunate to be based near their home:
Regulation (EC) No 300/2008 establishes common basic standards in the field of civil aviation security that are directly applicable in all Member States of the European Union, including the UK. In addition, the Single Consolidated Direction (Aviation) 2010 (SCD) sets out more stringent measures that apply to aircraft in UK airspace and departing UK, and is issued to all airlines via the Security Manager.
Below is an extract from the SCD (Chapter 10, Part C), applicable to aircraft registered outside the UK, when in UK airspace or on the ground in the UK with its engines running:
‘A re-deploying staff member permitted to travel in the flight crew compartment as a passenger shall be permitted to remain in the flight crew compartment only if no seat is available in the passenger compartment.’
If a crew member is traveling to or from duty, they are re-deploying to or from a company assignment.
May I suggest you re-deploy yourself a more worthy assignment !
Let me educate and enlighten you on both your lack of regulatory knowledge and compassion for those less fortunate to be based near their home:
Regulation (EC) No 300/2008 establishes common basic standards in the field of civil aviation security that are directly applicable in all Member States of the European Union, including the UK. In addition, the Single Consolidated Direction (Aviation) 2010 (SCD) sets out more stringent measures that apply to aircraft in UK airspace and departing UK, and is issued to all airlines via the Security Manager.
Below is an extract from the SCD (Chapter 10, Part C), applicable to aircraft registered outside the UK, when in UK airspace or on the ground in the UK with its engines running:
‘A re-deploying staff member permitted to travel in the flight crew compartment as a passenger shall be permitted to remain in the flight crew compartment only if no seat is available in the passenger compartment.’
If a crew member is traveling to or from duty, they are re-deploying to or from a company assignment.
May I suggest you re-deploy yourself a more worthy assignment !
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Magplug,
If you are correct they have no boarding card, how do the staff on the ground after departure know how many souls are on board if the worst should happen? As a non-commercial pilot, it seems strange to me.
If you are correct they have no boarding card, how do the staff on the ground after departure know how many souls are on board if the worst should happen? As a non-commercial pilot, it seems strange to me.
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I should imagine something as simple and legal as speaking to the flight dispatcher, he adds them on to the load sheet, so they are in the weight and balance,they are in the final figures....fully accounted for.... Fully legal......simples.
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As far as I know In the UK it's against dft rules or whatever to pass through security in your free time using your ID that is certain, if staff member is intending to travel on FR then surely they must hold a jump seat pass issued by the company in advance whether travel in flightdeck or in cabin and must travel through security airside through normal pax route, so if three or four FR pilots want to travel on jump seats back home and two get offloaded due no seats down back what happens to crew member then stuck airside with no purpose of work and no boarding card?
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@ICEHOUSES.
Well they might as well wait for the next flight to STN/DUB for the forthcoming interview.
A better question from the OP might be: why don't all airlines let us do this? It used to work a treat in the US
Well they might as well wait for the next flight to STN/DUB for the forthcoming interview.
A better question from the OP might be: why don't all airlines let us do this? It used to work a treat in the US
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Oh for F..K sake!
What is your problem Sparkplug and others?!
The system is the only reasonable thing left in aviation, and now some morons are starting to critisize even those sparse rules making our profession still bearable!
And you ARE allowed to pass by crew security when positioning to work by the way. I do it bloody every week AND with my water, my deodorant etc...
What is your problem Sparkplug and others?!
The system is the only reasonable thing left in aviation, and now some morons are starting to critisize even those sparse rules making our profession still bearable!
And you ARE allowed to pass by crew security when positioning to work by the way. I do it bloody every week AND with my water, my deodorant etc...
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Within the UK it is illegal to use staff search unless you are listed on the paperwork as operating or supernumerary crew, indeed at LHR if caught you will lose your airside pass.
As management at a previous airline we had discussions with dft about this very subject and it is an absolute no-no, we were told in no uncertain terms that positioning crew must be in possession of a valid boarding card and been through passenger security. Simple as.
Don't forget that any positioning crew on a boarding card (even in uniform) would be subject to airport taxes, maybe that's why Ryanair do it this way but I think they are playing with fire within the UK.
As management at a previous airline we had discussions with dft about this very subject and it is an absolute no-no, we were told in no uncertain terms that positioning crew must be in possession of a valid boarding card and been through passenger security. Simple as.
Don't forget that any positioning crew on a boarding card (even in uniform) would be subject to airport taxes, maybe that's why Ryanair do it this way but I think they are playing with fire within the UK.
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It's been happening in the U.S. For years, your in uniform,fit for work,going to your place of work, you will be listed on the paperwork as crew member..... Indeed I'm sure in the unfortunate case of pilot incapacitation there may be something in the ops manual that would suggest "A positioning pilot, fit to fly may occupy his/her seat in order to continue safe operation of the flight..."
Also,I would say that an airline that has 300+ aircraft, 2000 flights a day etc is not really in the habit of doing something illegal in the eyes of the DFT Numerous times EVERY DAY, for the last 20 odd years! If the authorities/security had a problem with this then it would have been addressed by now don't you think.......
Also,I would say that an airline that has 300+ aircraft, 2000 flights a day etc is not really in the habit of doing something illegal in the eyes of the DFT Numerous times EVERY DAY, for the last 20 odd years! If the authorities/security had a problem with this then it would have been addressed by now don't you think.......
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About 15 years ago I worked airside at LHR. It was clearly explained I could not use my airside pass unless performing my normal duties (work for HMG), it was not to be used in my free time. Same for staff parking - no free staff car park while on 2 weeks holiday. If FR have people without boarding cards and not functioning as crew, going airside, (understood they should be on the load sheet if they get a seat anywhere onboard) it would seem to me to be in breach of the regs.
Can anyone explain why/how its legal?
I am not FR bashing, just concerned/interested.
Can anyone explain why/how its legal?
I am not FR bashing, just concerned/interested.
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Within the UK it is illegal to use staff search unless you are listed on the paperwork as operating or supernumerary crew, indeed at LHR if caught you will lose your airside pass.
If the excuse by the cheap suits at DfT were to do with security, I might have limited sympathy. But tax? FFS! Collect it properly! Some of these people need to be kicked, literally kicked out of their endless flipping meetings and dragged, by the ear, over to where the professionals are trying to get the flipping job done.
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The US Cargo carriers set up a good way of getting around on their network around Germany, France ,UK etc.
It should be a piece of cake for the Low cost carriers to do something like it.
It should be a piece of cake for the Low cost carriers to do something like it.
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Originally Posted by Icanseeclearly
Don't forget that any positioning crew on a boarding card (even in uniform) would be subject to airport taxes
3.1.1 Persons carrying out certain duties
Some categories of people are not regarded as passengers for APD purposes when they are engaged in duties on a flight. As such, APD is not charged on their carriage. These are:
- flight crew
- cabin attendants
- persons not carried for reward who are
escorting a passenger or goods
undertaking repair, maintenance, safety or security work
ensuring the hygienic preparation and handling of food and drink
These people are also exempt if they carry out the above duties within 72 hours of the flight ending. The same exemption applies to people who begin a return journey within 72 hours after performing any of the above duties provided that they are returning to base, that is the place where they are normally stationed or from where they normally operate.
However, when these people are travelling as passengers, and are not engaged in these duties or returning to base having been engaged in such duties on a previous flight, they are passengers and are chargeable for APD purposes.
Some categories of people are not regarded as passengers for APD purposes when they are engaged in duties on a flight. As such, APD is not charged on their carriage. These are:
- flight crew
- cabin attendants
- persons not carried for reward who are
escorting a passenger or goods
undertaking repair, maintenance, safety or security work
ensuring the hygienic preparation and handling of food and drink
These people are also exempt if they carry out the above duties within 72 hours of the flight ending. The same exemption applies to people who begin a return journey within 72 hours after performing any of the above duties provided that they are returning to base, that is the place where they are normally stationed or from where they normally operate.
However, when these people are travelling as passengers, and are not engaged in these duties or returning to base having been engaged in such duties on a previous flight, they are passengers and are chargeable for APD purposes.
You seem to be confusing other airport staff with those staff members actually travelling on flights as a passenger. Agree with your rant about the DFT suits though.
Originally Posted by anson harris
I think the question is that if they are recorded as being part of the crew - why doesn't the flight count for FTL purposes? You can't have it both ways.
I believe RYR actually are enjoying it both ways.... It is just that the Airport security heads, CAA, DFT and Border Force have yet to catch up what they are doing.
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There's a clear abuse here. If your roster shows you as being on a day off, I can't under any circumstances see that it's legitimate to walk through the staff security channel in uniform, walk onto the flightdeck and travel as though you were positioning staff on duty. Remember also that a contractor isn't an employee either.
Also clear problems with duty hours, days off etc. RYR are enjoying it more ways than one and it's the crew that suffers and are ultimately responsible for breaking dft rules. Sooner this is exposed the better for everyone.
Also clear problems with duty hours, days off etc. RYR are enjoying it more ways than one and it's the crew that suffers and are ultimately responsible for breaking dft rules. Sooner this is exposed the better for everyone.
If you are that deeply concerned are you going to stop all the long haul guys that operate out of London (for instance) spending many hours to drive to London down any number of motorways before they report for duty (or pop into a Travelodge for a nights kip). I know where I'd rather sit as I commuted and its not down the M1 and round the M25......
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If it's totally legit, then fair enough. Though I don't see how it can be, in more ways than one.
I always take more of an interest when folks try to immediately shut down discussions with phrases like "put a sock in it" or "redeploy yourself!"
Doesn't make them sound confident of the legalities, does it?
If it ain't legal, it's an abuse, and shouldn't be happening.
I always take more of an interest when folks try to immediately shut down discussions with phrases like "put a sock in it" or "redeploy yourself!"
Doesn't make them sound confident of the legalities, does it?
If it ain't legal, it's an abuse, and shouldn't be happening.
