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Ryanair & Positioning Pilots

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Ryanair & Positioning Pilots

Old 9th Jan 2016, 07:47
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Originally Posted by 2Planks
If you are that deeply concerned are you going to stop all the long haul guys that operate out of London (for instance) spending many hours to drive to London down any number of motorways before they report for duty (or pop into a Travelodge for a nights kip). I know where I'd rather sit as I commuted and its not down the M1 and round the M25......
It's either legal or it isn't. If it's legal then there is nothing to worry about and those calling for people to put a sock in it are just making it look suspicious. If it isn't legal then pointing out that some others may also be doing something else that contravenes the rules will not make it any more legal. Two wrongs do not make a right. The more people shout against this the more guilty they look. Let the light of day in, let the regulators look at it - if it's all above board there is nothing to fear.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 08:20
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There is a reciprocal thread on a similar theme in Frbrant Harbour.Maybe the authorities are starting to tighten up ?

Perhaps if FR were to be stopped from doing this it would put an end to some of their more obscene employment practices as well ?
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 09:03
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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it's totally legal as long as the crew is on the GD. our outfit requires us to make a request to the company a week before we want to travel as non ops crew. no problems. no need for boarding pass.

Regarding FTL however, we are considered as starting duty at the sign on time of the crew operating that flight. If this is not happening at FR then it leaves the Positioning crew exposed in case of an incident.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 09:21
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You do not sign on "on duty" when you leave home for a 2 hr slog down the motorway, so, unless the company have rostered you, you are neither on duty when you climb on board a flight (of "your" choice ) to make the journey from where you live, to where you commence your work.

Thinking Colgan accident here, it would be remit of any of us to present ourselves for work fatigued due excessive commuting, but, it is the individuals responsibility, and cannot be counted as duty, you could have come the night before, then what ? we are going to start arguing about min rest etc ? get real.

Facilitating your travel free & ticketless, is one of the few outwardly generous things Ryanair do, and they are not by nature generous, so why ? the simple answer is that it has given them flexibility, and helped them in persuading bods to base themselves everywhere under the sun, because it was always "commutable" for free. It also provides a handy unofficial standby crew member if one FD crew goes "tech", in which case of course the Supernumary crew member would then be on duty & it would impinge on his projected further duty, but you wouldn't hear the company complaining.

For those of you not too long in aviation, you have perhaps not identified the fact that many administration/ ground based types have an unconditional loathing/jealousy (God knows why ? ) of aircrew. If the current system, which has been widely used for decades, hasn't rung any alarm bells, why are some of you coming on here ringing them loudly to gain attention ? some strange ulterior motive there ? do you actually want to restrict one of the few freedoms we benefit from ? can't figure you guys out
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 09:21
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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I used to see guys jumpseating in on a late flight to do earlys the next day after only a few house sleep then once the 5 day pattern was over they would jump seat home on a late flight after an early duty. These guys looked constantly fatigued.

I believe it does say somewhere in Part A that your not supposed to do this but I would guess that's only to prevent canceled flights disrupting the schedule in case you don't make your duty

A good friend of mine was once told by his base captain that he will be removed from his duty because he flew in on a late from STN to do an early the next day but ended up doing the duty still because the base captain was told it's none of your business how he gets to work. He could have driven all through the night and you would not have known.

Legal or not I can't say. Personal opinion is that it most definitely should not be allowed. You have to be in full uniform and available to assist with monitoring refuelling or walk around a etc so I suppose that makes you active crew. However it does not count as FDP! So there not paying the game right that way I suspect.

My guess is that if it was removed as a privalage and had to be rostered it would cost Ryanair so much time and hassle that the 5/4 roster would have to be scrapped and that would lose them a huge amount of crew that only work in FR because of the jumpseating 5/4 option. Likely planes would be parked up due lack of crew and expansion slow or even retract. You can't have that many airframes without the crew.

A lot of smaller Italian bases struggle for crew as no one really wants to be there. 5/4 you can jump in and out and earn a crust. Lose the option and i would guess most will jump out and apply elsewhere
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 10:09
  #26 (permalink)  
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Let's not confuse two issues here.....

I am a commuter - It is a lifestyle choice usually for reasons of family location. From my experience commuting more than one time zone is barely do-able and as EASA has added responsibilities on the shoulders of the operators, those who are long-haul commuting are now very much under the spotlight.

There is a huge difference between choosing to commute from home to a foreign base where you carry out blocks of work..... and being rostered between bases all over Europe to which you have to take yourself on your rostered days off.

On my days off I do not carry out any work at the behest of my employer so they are truly days free of duty for FTL purposes.

Can the same be said of RYR pilots ?
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 10:50
  #27 (permalink)  
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Tax Free Perk?

For UK based people, I would guess free travel to/from place of employment would be considered a perk by HMRC tax inspectors (other people pay travel costs to place of employment from tax paid salary, contractors might be different) - hence it should be declard and taxed by HMRC. Just a thought, not saying all FR people don't declare it!
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 10:56
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Normally if you're going out of base you get scheduled for the repositioning and get paid per diem ,
If you go out of base to do a simulator check they should schedule you for the repositioning and pay a per diem there too for those days.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 11:25
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Flight time limitation schemes were introduced to limit excessive fatigue inherent in operating aeroplanes and time spent therein.
Thus, if an employer wishes to "passenger" an employee somewhere at it's behest then that time carries over towards duty time totals.
So, if one decides to "self position" ie. at your own convenience rather than the convenience of the employer - is this time now not contributing to any personal fatigue?
I freely admit that I know nothing of the practices within FR but any half good lawyer would have a field day with some of the ideas expressed on this thread.
It really is not that difficult! That is why many companies publish travel time criteria to their employees' main base. This allows them to show their "duty of care" to their employees. In other words - ignore at your peril!

This no longer affects me but I have seen too many colleagues worn down by excessive "commuting" not to mention been subjected to excessive "company behest" positioning by indifferent crew controllers myself.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 11:57
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Totally agree with Captplaystation and despegue!

Why the **** you complain for the only thing left SIMPLE in aviation?
**** off, we are PILOTS! Maybe the ONLY people who must be allowed to stay on the apron and in the aeroplanes at all time without questioning!

Too much burocreacy in this job. Seems that some of you LOVE a complicated life!
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 12:12
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At least a commuter can sleep uninterrupted each night while he is away from home. How many non-commuting fathers and mothers can say that?


If commuting is done in your own time and out of your own free will, FTL's should be totally irrelevant. What's next, FTL's telling me I can't bring my children to school in the morning? FTL's telling me I can't go to a party at night? FTL's telling me that I cannot do my morning exercise run before a flight?

After years of commuting I can honestly say it was of no consequence to my performance at work. I can't say that of my family life..
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 12:24
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So, if one decides to "self position" ie. at your own convenience rather than the convenience of the employer - is this time now not contributing to any personal fatigue?
Many many things contribute to personal fatigue. It's called having a life. You may choose to drive around the M25 every working day, I may choose to commute to base at my leisure and live in a hotel 5 minutes from the crew room. You may choose to raise pigs and may be found shoveling pig manure whilst I leisurely board one of my commuting flights listening to Bach on my noise cancelling headphones. You may choose to make a baby with your wife which will guarantee that you will not sleep properly for the coming years, whilst I may choose to leave all the family hassle at home for my five day stint at base.

As long as our performance in the flight deck does not suffer, who are we then to mind each others private lives?
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 12:29
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting thread. I got briefly arrested and had my pass suspended at a big UK airport for using the staff channel when positioning on company business as pax in casual clothes. Caused a load of hassle and our crews are specifically told that this is illegal to do in the UK now.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 12:45
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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There is still the very grey area about the true status of the so-called contractor. It will be resolved; there is too much coming into the open about such abuse.
There will be those who believe they should have employee status, but can't be bothered to campaign for it. There are those who prefer to keep hush hush about it and milk it for what they can. (however, the more modern structure makes that less appealing). So most are caught in the 'self-employed' grey area.
Simple question; pilot on a company employee contract has to position from home base to another in the network before & after duty. Is that travel time rostered as duty or time off? If it is considered duty time, and/or even FTL time, then who organises the roster & travel time? I'm sure you will find that for direct employees it is yes to duty time and at company cost and organisation. This is basic FTL application and employees' T's & C's. The FTL issue is safety related; the combined duty time also has a limit.
So, if employees enjoy these considerations why not contractors? Are they some how immune from FTL & duty time considerations? I understand contractors will not benefit from paid costs; that's their bed to lie in, but for duty/rest issues they should not be any different from any pilot uncharge of a company a/c.
A contractor has a common/preferred base. They even have a registered office which, for self-employed, could be considered their base. Sometimes they need to operate a considerable time & distance from either. How can all that be some ghostly apparition?
And the employ will also enjoy being paid for their positioning time, as it is duty. The contractor really is on a triple whammy.
If you disagree then justify it.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 13:16
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PENKO: Yes, most poeple do have lives outside of work. However you seem to be argueing that a) driving from your real home (I am assuming here that you do not live at an airport) b)parking your car c) battling your way through airport queues for security d) waiting for boarding of your flight (hoping that it doesn't go "tech"/get cancelled e) board and endure your flight - that none of the foregoing have any influence on how tired you may get versus your locally based colleague who has the same family life but no commute to do?!
If your arguement were true then no FTL scheme would require the counting of positioning flights.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 14:15
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Meiklour, even dining on behest of the company is counted as duty time. Now I am sure you don't advocate skipping diner before an early flight!
The reason positioning flights count as duty is not because they are so specially tiring but because you are WORKING when you position.

A commuter is not working when he commutes. A commuter arranges his life voluntarily so that he chooses to fly to his work in his OWN SPARE TIME. So to come back to your question, a typical short haul commuter spends far less time traveling than most 'local' pilots who drive 30 to 45 minutes or up to an hour twice each day. And no, passing through security and boarding an aircraft is no big deal for a seasoned commuter. You just fast track through everything, you don't even think about it.

A quick calculation of a pilot who lives say, in AMS and works in LGW.
20 minute train ride to AMS, 90 minutes to reach the hotel in LGW, and then 5x ten minutes walk each day to reach the crew room, followed by another 110 minutes to come back home. That is a rough total of 270 minutes 'traveling', most of which is done reading a good book.

Compare that to a colleague who lives locally. 45 minutes to the car park by car, 20 minutes to reach the crew room by bus. Then again 65 minutes to go home after the duty. That is 130 minutes travel for just one day of work. Times five is 650 minutes every week traveling, most of which is behind the wheel of a car in busy traffic.


So are you sure that commuting is by definition more fatiguing?
I did not even mention that the commuting pilot gets 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep every day for five days compared to his local colleague who also has to run a family on those five working days.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 14:16
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If your arguement were true then no FTL scheme would require the counting of positioning flights.
Spot on!

We ("foreign" airline) have been told we can't use the crew channel if we deadhead through UK.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 14:45
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PENKO: You are "muddying the waters" of this arguement by extending your case into the block of work the commuter does when he is away from home! That was not the original point of this thread! It was about people subjecting themselves, voluntarily to extra travelling fatigue by commuting before a duty.

At one stage I commuted from the south of the UK to Frankfurt for two years on an, albeit, long haul roster. No matter which LON airport was used (I preferred LCY by the way!) public transport to airport (allow 2 hours), one hour at least check-in time, flight itself ( 1:45 usually) + ensuing public transport to HOTAC. Very rarely was this less than a 5 hour journey. Tiring - you bet, especially when you have to travel to fit in with available flight/train timetables which I put to you probably does not affect your based colleague.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 14:59
  #39 (permalink)  
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I have been both a local employee and a commuter, and I have to say that aside from the odd M25 disaster or airport closure through snow then one is no more stressful or time-consuming than the other.

@Captplaystation / despegue / I-AINC

You seem content to break the law. I am sure your employers regard you as an absolute gift. The airline distances itself from the employment reality it has created in the sure and certain knowledge that if an employee is caught abusing security all they have to do is to fire them and the problem (and any PR fallout) disappears at a stroke.

Whilst selfishly feathering your own little nests the professional status and reward so long fought-for by our predecessors becomes ever degraded. With every new pilot joining the industry that is prepared to cut corners and do something else for nothing the downward spiral continues.
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Old 9th Jan 2016, 15:23
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Meiklour, if you associate commuting with fatigue then you must look at the whole working block. That's not muddying the waters as you say. You cannot single out commuting as 'fatiguing' by just looking at one negative aspect and disregarding all the other factors. Muddying the waters is arguing that FTL's come into play for something we do in our spare time!
Where do we stop otherwise?

Can I go for a run in the morning before a flight? Can I drive my children to school? Can I visit my parents who live two hours away from the airport before reporting for an afternoon flight? Can I manage my own company before leaving to the airport to work?




And yes, you had a horrible commute to Frankfurt, but that is absolutely not the norm. Leave it up to the individual to decide wether their commute is fatiguing. Personally I find running a family and working 'from home' far, far more fatiguing than commuting. Commuting was the saving grace when we had a newborn in the house.
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