Ryanair & Positioning Pilots
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Very picky/pedantic
Fact:PILOTS COMMUTE
Best way:Ticketed(ID00) normal channels,sits in Business,free champagne no uniform
Option 1:Ticketed(ID00) normal channels,sits in Business,no champagne in uniform
Option 2:Crew ID on Gen Dec,crew channels,sits in Business no champs
Option 3:Crew ID on Gen Dec,crew channels,j/s ride
Option 4:Crew ID no Gen Dec,crew channels,(used pre 911,still used except some places)
Option 5:Crew ID at gate in transit,ask operating skipper direct-works domestic
Option 6:Crew ID at Flt OPS of another carrier and ask crew for j/s-works well in Asia
The impossible option(so it would seem):try to commute from or to any UK airport without a passenger ticket.
I note i)an OPERATING crew member arriving at LHR,for example,can not enter the departure shopping area during a turnaround without first exiting through arrivals and then re-entering through normal departure channels.Pilots like to shop.Its one of the perks.Its done the world over except...where the lunatics run the asylum.
i)An operating crew member on a turnaround at a UK airport can and sometimes is literally prevented from performing a walkaround due jetway sec code access.And when access is given(they wont give code)you cant get back in!NUTS.
Fortunately,I dont commute via EU much.But if I had to,I would avoid the UK.
Best way:Ticketed(ID00) normal channels,sits in Business,free champagne no uniform
Option 1:Ticketed(ID00) normal channels,sits in Business,no champagne in uniform
Option 2:Crew ID on Gen Dec,crew channels,sits in Business no champs
Option 3:Crew ID on Gen Dec,crew channels,j/s ride
Option 4:Crew ID no Gen Dec,crew channels,(used pre 911,still used except some places)
Option 5:Crew ID at gate in transit,ask operating skipper direct-works domestic
Option 6:Crew ID at Flt OPS of another carrier and ask crew for j/s-works well in Asia
The impossible option(so it would seem):try to commute from or to any UK airport without a passenger ticket.
I note i)an OPERATING crew member arriving at LHR,for example,can not enter the departure shopping area during a turnaround without first exiting through arrivals and then re-entering through normal departure channels.Pilots like to shop.Its one of the perks.Its done the world over except...where the lunatics run the asylum.
i)An operating crew member on a turnaround at a UK airport can and sometimes is literally prevented from performing a walkaround due jetway sec code access.And when access is given(they wont give code)you cant get back in!NUTS.
Fortunately,I dont commute via EU much.But if I had to,I would avoid the UK.
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Sorry 111 what exactly is your point? I was under the impression this was a discussion forum yet your focus seems to be a crusade for EASA FTLs and tighter movements of crew..how precisely is this in the interests of self positioning crew wanting a life style choice.. maybe you missed the point!
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Any topic starting with Ryanair always gets a good hit rate it is not a reflection of the quality more the inverse relationship between quality and volume. Perhaps the thread could be re titled to cover the broader concept ? At THY if you want to self position you need a ticket it's not duty. If I'm required to position to another base for a flight by the company its duty not flight duty and the time recorded according to time spent.
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Briefly then oro.ftl.235 to 245, the overall ref, but;
At the moment we have " implementation rules " the intention being that they can be changed, by operators. For example from CAA.co.uk, EASA FTL.
" Variations
Within the new regulations there are two standard variations that an operator may apply for:
Two pilot flight duty period limits when un-acclimatised
Reduced rest provisions
These both require an increased level of risk assessment and full Fatigue Risk Management (FRM) approval. Unless an operator already holds an FRM approval, they will not be granted one with their initial EASA Subpart FTL scheme and therefore will not initially be able to use these variations. "
So what I mean is that some rules are set hard, others not. Whilst Easy for instance have a FRM program, to my knowledge Ryan, do not. For years now they have been telling pilots that they can't be tired because some guy they said was ex NASA, said that their roster was " grand " . Just an example of the 2 operating approaches.
I don't want to restrict any pilots lifestyle choice, I would like to see the end of abuse of regulation, to prevent another Buffalo accident
" Variations
Within the new regulations there are two standard variations that an operator may apply for:
Two pilot flight duty period limits when un-acclimatised
Reduced rest provisions
These both require an increased level of risk assessment and full Fatigue Risk Management (FRM) approval. Unless an operator already holds an FRM approval, they will not be granted one with their initial EASA Subpart FTL scheme and therefore will not initially be able to use these variations. "
So what I mean is that some rules are set hard, others not. Whilst Easy for instance have a FRM program, to my knowledge Ryan, do not. For years now they have been telling pilots that they can't be tired because some guy they said was ex NASA, said that their roster was " grand " . Just an example of the 2 operating approaches.
I don't want to restrict any pilots lifestyle choice, I would like to see the end of abuse of regulation, to prevent another Buffalo accident
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We have shown time and time again in this thread that commuting in uniform is an approved way of travel. Sure, you might think that there are some grey areas and issues but it is obvious that these issues have been resolved with the authorities otherwise a lot of crew would have their passes revoked in the last two hours alone! So please all stop making a fool of yourselves by shouting that security will pull passes etc.
Targeting commuting to prevent a 'Buffalo'? By making life impossible for thousands of pilots (of ALL airlines!) who commute responsibly? Whilst it is time and agaoin shown that rules are not being abused? That's a bit over the top don't you think?
Unfair competition? Any airline can apply the rules to facilitate their crew to commute. So no unfair competition.
Targeting commuting to prevent a 'Buffalo'? By making life impossible for thousands of pilots (of ALL airlines!) who commute responsibly? Whilst it is time and agaoin shown that rules are not being abused? That's a bit over the top don't you think?
Unfair competition? Any airline can apply the rules to facilitate their crew to commute. So no unfair competition.
Last edited by PENKO; 14th Jan 2016 at 09:04.
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For those resident in the UK (and possibly elsewhere), isn't there a tax implication? I'm sure that if my employer provided free air travel, or even gave me a free bus pass to commute from home to my normal place of work, the Inland Revenue would be in touch to get their share of a taxable benefit. On the other side of that, if my local airport was designated my normal place of work and I drove there at my own expense before my employer flew me elsewhere, that would be tax free but for flight crew it would fall foul of the FTL rules.
We have shown time and time again in this thread that commuting in uniform is an approved way of travel.
Sure, you might hink (sic) that there are some grey areas and issues but it is obvious that these issues have been resolved with the authorities otherwise a lot of crew would have their passes revoked in the last two hours alone!
I think the OP was, IMHO, just pooh stirring and indulging in RYR bashing. I'm no fan of some of their business practices as it relates to the working conditions of professional pilots but I've flown with enough ex RYR guys to know it's not all bad either.
The issue of positioning/commuting is, I suspect, a grey area in RYR. However, I realise that a lot of commuters at RYR are probably doing so out of necessity. They are not commuters through choice as you might find at BA and VS for example. If the company has a way of allowing that that makes it easier for them then who am I, or anyone else, to criticise.
The posts I've found really annoying are the ones about airside access ie. the "having an airport ID does not confer access etc" brigade.
The use of an ID, in this context, if it is allowed by the airport/DfT is just a means to avoid the potentially longer queues in the public screening areas. The end result will be the same as the commuting (positioning) pilot will end up airside at the gate. Of course if he/she used their ID to access the airport when not traveling they would, quite rightly, lose their ID if caught. Also, bear in mind that whichever way you get airside the process is the same in terms of screening.
In fact a few years ago BALPA agreed a protocol with the DfT that commuting and positioning crews could use the staff search areas subject to certain caveats. From memory I believe that one could only do so within 24 hours of a duty and if requested would need to show your roster if asked to do so. However, when I tried to do so I got a "sorry mate, we ain't heard about this". At the time I emailed the AVSEC chap at BALPA and he said this airport had signed up to the agreement.
Anyway, just my two penn'orth.
BBK
The issue of positioning/commuting is, I suspect, a grey area in RYR. However, I realise that a lot of commuters at RYR are probably doing so out of necessity. They are not commuters through choice as you might find at BA and VS for example. If the company has a way of allowing that that makes it easier for them then who am I, or anyone else, to criticise.
The posts I've found really annoying are the ones about airside access ie. the "having an airport ID does not confer access etc" brigade.
The use of an ID, in this context, if it is allowed by the airport/DfT is just a means to avoid the potentially longer queues in the public screening areas. The end result will be the same as the commuting (positioning) pilot will end up airside at the gate. Of course if he/she used their ID to access the airport when not traveling they would, quite rightly, lose their ID if caught. Also, bear in mind that whichever way you get airside the process is the same in terms of screening.
In fact a few years ago BALPA agreed a protocol with the DfT that commuting and positioning crews could use the staff search areas subject to certain caveats. From memory I believe that one could only do so within 24 hours of a duty and if requested would need to show your roster if asked to do so. However, when I tried to do so I got a "sorry mate, we ain't heard about this". At the time I emailed the AVSEC chap at BALPA and he said this airport had signed up to the agreement.
Anyway, just my two penn'orth.
BBK
Having witnessed several times the arrest of commuting pilots who thought that the rules didn't apply to them, I think any pilot that isn't 100% aware of immigration/emigration rules as well as local security procedures is leaving themselves wide open to a world of hurt. At LGW/LHR, for instance, the removal of air-side passes has been threatened, which I assume would lead to dismissal. I can't imagine that within the UK (with its rabid adherence to rules and regs) it would be any different at another airport.
We have had several incidents related to "flight deck breaches" where the "breacher" is a employee/crewmember/pilot, but the correct procedures or paperwork hadn't been followed. In one case, the CAA were looking at prosecution.
In Spain, I saw one pilot arrested by the Guardia Civil, for swiping when not actually on duty. Just because you've got away with it doesn't necessarily mean it is legal. Just be careful out there.....
We have had several incidents related to "flight deck breaches" where the "breacher" is a employee/crewmember/pilot, but the correct procedures or paperwork hadn't been followed. In one case, the CAA were looking at prosecution.
In Spain, I saw one pilot arrested by the Guardia Civil, for swiping when not actually on duty. Just because you've got away with it doesn't necessarily mean it is legal. Just be careful out there.....
Last edited by hunterboy; 14th Jan 2016 at 08:23. Reason: grammar
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In fact a few years ago BALPA agreed a protocol with the DfT that commuting and positioning crews could use the staff search areas subject to certain caveats. From memory I believe that one could only do so within 24 hours of a duty and if requested would need to show your roster if asked to do so. However, when I tried to do so I got a "sorry mate, we ain't heard about this". At the time I emailed the AVSEC chap at BALPA and he said this airport had signed up to the agreement.
hunterboy, commuters will be well aware of all the rules regarding commuting in uniform as laid down in their company manuals. There really is no need for you to remind them that misuse of airline ID can get them in trouble, let alone arrested or suspended. Do you remind your doctor to wash his hands after you?
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Thanks for putting us all in the picture PENKO
A well argued point, clearly and succinctly put. Can't believe we were discussing it really. So all settled then, thanks. You taught us all a lesson.
May as well close the thread now as you have proved everything " over and over again " so impressed
May as well close the thread now as you have proved everything " over and over again " so impressed
Last edited by 111boy; 14th Jan 2016 at 16:33. Reason: Opportunities for more sarcastic comments
Took long enough to remember these apparent answers.
I'm glad I'm not required to make such 'donations' of time and effort to my employer. I am also thankful that they have enough staff and good sense to employ sufficient crew without expecting us to make these donations to subsidise the company.
Continue to enjoy your little heap.
CC
I'm glad I'm not required to make such 'donations' of time and effort to my employer. I am also thankful that they have enough staff and good sense to employ sufficient crew without expecting us to make these donations to subsidise the company.
Continue to enjoy your little heap.
CC
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There are two distinct items being discussed here. And this is my opinion.
First, positioning flights. These are where your employer is sending you from airport 1 to airport 2 so you can then be crew from airport 2. This is considered work and counts towards whatever hours, charges etc you have. You should be listed on the manifest as crew or a passenger for this. If as crew, then crew routes are open to you. If as a passenger, you should have a ticket and boarding card and use the passenger routes regardless of the fact that you may have a security pass for airport A.
Second is commuting. This is where you choose to live near airport A but are based at airport B and it is your responsibility to get to airport B. In this case, this is not work and you should always be on the manifest as a passenger with a ticket/boarding card. You should ALWAYS use the passenger routes in this instance.
First, positioning flights. These are where your employer is sending you from airport 1 to airport 2 so you can then be crew from airport 2. This is considered work and counts towards whatever hours, charges etc you have. You should be listed on the manifest as crew or a passenger for this. If as crew, then crew routes are open to you. If as a passenger, you should have a ticket and boarding card and use the passenger routes regardless of the fact that you may have a security pass for airport A.
Second is commuting. This is where you choose to live near airport A but are based at airport B and it is your responsibility to get to airport B. In this case, this is not work and you should always be on the manifest as a passenger with a ticket/boarding card. You should ALWAYS use the passenger routes in this instance.
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This entire topic makes me very happy to be a pilot in the U.S.A.
This should not be this complicated.
This should not be this complicated.
Stuff like this is why we left.....
This discussion sure makes me appreciate the KCM system in use in the US.
At bases like EWR, LGA and JFK well over half of the pilots commute more than 100 miles to go to work. 9-11 raised the bar as far as authentication but we do enjoy reciprocal free rides on most U.S. carriers including cargo airlines.
