Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.


Old 7th Mar 2001, 04:44
  #1 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a
Post Atlas/AACS

Where do you people in Atlas stand now that AACS is a 'fait acompli'. They have created an EU regulation busting airline in the UK
and are re registering Atlas aeroplanes on to the Brit register. Where will it stop?
You'll have a whole range of 'foreign' operations under the Atlas Holding banner in no time at all and you are powerless to stop it. In the UK the principal contract is with
BA's World Cargo and since the change to ATLAS Holdings I bet the discussions are based on how can this cartel be made bigger.
It's your patch but look out. You have a very serious threat approaching danger level.
Old 7th Mar 2001, 15:13
  #2 (permalink)  
Just another number
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Thumbs down

I wouldn't be too sure about the 'fait acompli' bit torpedoe. I talked to some Atlas Mainline crews yesterday, and they were all prepared to strike if their aircraft were flown by AACS crews. I think that BA might very soon find itself without any dedicated cargo capacity.

Captain Airclues is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2001, 22:31
  #3 (permalink)  
Silver Thunder
Posts: n/a

What do you think the pilots at BA or United, or anywhere would do if they got a 26% pay cut during record profits? The company continues to take things away from us. Our health insurance costs have increased. The hotels we stay in have changed to a lower standard. Instead of non-stop commercial flights to reposition we get multiple stops. They keep us out a full 18 days and now prohibit overtime flying. Every paycheck must be scrutinized, there will be a shortage that will take months to collect. Active union members are being singled out and disciplined, fortunately the FAA is watching. They are trying to move the company off shore. They are telling the AACS group that they will be terminated if they join our union, or any union. At every turn the company subtly encourage dissent between the pilot groups.

Although we were paid well below industry standard we were somewhat content until the company started their games. The management of Atlas Air must have wanted ALPA on the property, every action they take further unites the pilot group. We will vote for a strike, we will strike!



[This message has been edited by Silver Thunder (edited 09 March 2001).]
Old 10th Mar 2001, 02:37
  #4 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

I'm not 100% sure of Brit Law but I don't
think Atlas Holdings/ AACS can terminate somebody for being union. I imagine a few of them are in unions already anyway. Your posting makes Atlas sound somewhat of an undesirable environment.
Is the job market not bouyant enough for the heavy metal pilots to tell them to take a hike anyway? You have my symapathies in the mean time. Do the guys in AACS know what they are into?
Old 10th Mar 2001, 02:51
  #5 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Boy does this sound familiar. I think Atlas managers may have attended seminars in the Fragrant Harbour. Keep the faith guys, this can be dealt with, especially in a more labour friendly country.
Old 10th Mar 2001, 09:17
  #6 (permalink)  
Ignition Override
Posts: n/a
Thumbs up

Good luck to the real Atlas pilots. I've met some of you guys at an almost windowless training center. When your airline started operations years ago, it looked as if your company wanted to take care of you.
Old 10th Mar 2001, 12:42
  #7 (permalink)  
stator vane
Posts: n/a
Red face

wow, this sounds discouraging. Atlas US had a class date for April 2 which changed to April 23 which i was considering going to, but after reading this thread, i seriously doubt that i will.

great airplane and great international flights, but that sounds as if that is all that is good about Atlas!

Old 10th Mar 2001, 14:15
  #8 (permalink)  
The Guvnor
Posts: n/a
Thumbs up

As long as they obey the rules, ie:

1) at least 51% of the ownership and control is in the hands of UK nationals;

2) they employ UK/EU crews

I don't think there should be too many problems. You Yanks really do need to wake up and smell the coffee - this is a global business, as shown by SQ's investment in VS and BA and SAir's global network of franchisees (and investments).

I have no sympathy whatsoever for the US crews of Atlas - they ahve been over here for a considerable time, stealing the bread from the mouths of UK/EU pilot's children. Let's see how they like it when the boot's on the other foot!

Unfortunately, the Americans - for reasons best known to themselves - demand an unlevel playing field. Atlas, for example, is allowed to own 49% of a UK airline - yet AFX could not own more than 24.9%.

The US definition of 'Open Skies' means that as long as US carriers get to fly when and where they want they are happy - including cabotage and derived fifth freedom operations; yet few foreign airlines are able to attain the same level of economic benefit. The US seems to view a level playing field as one that is tilted 45 degrees in their favour!

Why is this? Could it be that US carriers are, in fact, so inward looking and poorly managed that, in fact, they find it had - of not downright impossible - to compete with foreign airlines?


[This message has been edited by The Guvnor (edited 10 March 2001).]
Old 10th Mar 2001, 17:55
  #9 (permalink)  
Silver Thunder
Posts: n/a

Hey Guv,

You have made it clear in these forums that you don't care for any airline that is not yours. You suggest that Atlas can't compete globally, you are misinformed, our business is global.

Yes the airline business has become global. We need to stand together as aviators, globally. Who else will protect us, our companies, our governments?

You have implied that you are a manager of some sort. I question the motivation of most of your postings.
Old 10th Mar 2001, 19:15
  #10 (permalink)  
The Guvnor
Posts: n/a

Silver Thunder - I have never said (or implied) that "all airlines that aren't mine are bad". As I'm between airlines, so to speak, that would be pretty hard in any case!

In any case, as you should know if you work for them, Atlas Air is not a 'proper' airline. It is an ACMI operator, and therefore operates as an 'instant airlines R us' service for 'real' airlines (ie those that sell the cargo space) - and yes, as I know very well it is a global business (with, I think, the majority of its aircraft being leased to non US carriers).

My dispute is with those that apply one rule when they want to get into someone else's market; yet jump up and down when other people try and get into 'their' markets.
Old 10th Mar 2001, 20:12
  #11 (permalink)  
Silver Thunder
Posts: n/a

The pilots of Atlas Air are not against or opposed to pilots from other countries. We have many nationalities in our company, at all levels.

We are opposed to a non-union pilot group, A group that was put together to bust our union. AACS was created to divide us.

I would like to have the AACS group join our senority system and our union.
Old 10th Mar 2001, 20:21
  #12 (permalink)  
Beaver Driver
Posts: n/a

Hey Guv
You still haven't figured it out have you. Lets all say it one more time with feeling. The EU IS NOT A COUNTRY. The U.S. is. There is no way you will be allowed to come over here and ACMI between points in the US. Atlas can't do that in the UK, we only do that between COUNTRIES in the EU.

You say you have no sympathy for US Atlas pilots as if we had something to do with where we fly. If you want to protect your interests, don't spend all your time cutting down a company, and most especially it's pilots, who have nothing to do with the routes. Instead,spend your time lobbying for a United States of Europe, rather than a lose conglomeration of trade partners with an inter-country hiring agreement. Atlas has only been doing what your EU laws allow. I would hate to hear you whine if we tried to haul cargo inter-UK.

Your grasp of cabotage and the flying freedoms is shakey at best and your geography positively sucks. When the EU becomes a country and all the member states within give up their sovereignity and enact one set of laws concerning foreign companies and cabotage/x freedom rules then, and only then, can you come to the U.S and ask for reciprocal ACMI. By the time that happens you and I will both be dead. Don't blame the Atlas pilots....blame your ministers.

[This message has been edited by Beaver Driver (edited 10 March 2001).]
Old 10th Mar 2001, 20:58
  #13 (permalink)  
Silver Thunder
Posts: n/a

Los pilotos de Aire del Atlas no son contra u opuesto a pilotos de otros pa'ses. Nosotros tenemos muchas nacionalidades en nuestra compañ'a, en absoluto los niveles.
Nosotros nos oponemos a un grupo de piloto de non-unión, UN grupo que fue reunido para reventar nuestra unión. AACS fue creado para dividirnos.

Me gustar'a tener el AACS agruparse una nuestro sistema del senority y nuestra unión.

Pardon my French

Les pilotes d'Air de l'Atlas ne sont pas contre ou ont opposé aux pilotes d'autres pays. Nous avons beaucoup de nationalités dans notre compagnie, à tous les niveaux.
Nous sommes opposés à une non - union groupe pilote, UN groupe qui a été réuni pour casser notre union. AACS a été créé pour nous diviser.

J'aimerais avoir l'AACS grouper joignez notre système du senority et notre union.

Pardon my German

Die Piloten von Atlas-Luft sind nicht gegen oder abgeneigt zu Piloten von anderen Ländern. Wir haben viele Staatsangehörigkeiten in unserer Gesellschaft, bei allen Niveaus.
Wir werden zu einem nicht-Verein Pilot Gruppe, EINE Gruppe, die zusammengesetzt wurde, um unsere Gewerkschaft kaputtzumachen, opponiert. AACS wurde geschaffen, um uns zu teilen.

Ich ließe gern die AACS Gruppe unser senority-System und unsere Gewerkschaft verbinden.


I piloti di Aria di Atlante non sono contro o contrario a piloti da paesi altri. Noi abbiamo molte nazionalità nella nostra società, a tutti i livelli.
Noi siamo opposti ad un gruppo di pilota di non-unione, Un gruppo che è stato messo insieme per scoppiare la nostra unione. AACS fu creato per dividerci.

Gradirei avere l'AACS raggruppare congiunga il nostro sistema di senority e la nostra unione.


Os pilotos de Ar de Atlas não são contra ou contrário a pilotos de outros pa'ses. Nós temos muitas nacionalidades em nossa companhia, a todos os n'veis.
Nós somos opostos a um grupo de piloto de non-união, UM grupo que foi reunido para estourar nossa união. AACS foi criado para nos dividir.

Eu gostaria de ter o AACS se agrupar una nosso sistema de senority e nossa união.
Old 10th Mar 2001, 21:59
  #14 (permalink)  
Silver Thunder
Posts: n/a

Well said Beaver Driver.

Perhaps I should leave it to Beaver?
Old 10th Mar 2001, 22:38
  #15 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a


Surely you live in the United States of America, just as we live in a Union of European States.

Much as it grieves me to agree with the Guv, you are splitting hairs to promote your cause.

Get real.
Old 10th Mar 2001, 23:14
  #16 (permalink)  
Silver Thunder
Posts: n/a

Hey Beaver, are you D. T.?
Old 10th Mar 2001, 23:30
  #17 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

WARNING!, someone paid the electricity bill in that dingy, windowless office in PIK the gov calls home. Now he's back on the Atlas war path.
Watch out you theiving Atlas pilots, you naughty people, how dare you come over and fly for a BRITISH company, on BRITISH soil, at THEIR request.
How could you do this when there are all those UK registered 747-200/400 freighters lying around waiting to fly?. Shame on you.

You should stay on your side of the pond and play in your own sand box, just listen to the Guv he knows.
Don't let the fact that Polar Air Cargo has a maintenance base in PIK, and freely operates in and out of the UK confuse you, they are nice people, and can therefor pass into the Guv's little empire without reproach, but you, you whiners at Atlas have none of the Guv's sympathy, just read his 1951'st post.

But just remember please, when he is finally ready to get his NEXT start-up airline going, can he please have all those clapped out US registered Tri-Stars REALLY cheap?(He'll talk nicely to you "YANKS" then, I'm sure).

Tongue in cheek?, yes..

Same old song and dance from the Guv?, MOST DEFINATELY.

Well said Silver Thunder,
Beav, I'll see you in PVG.

Old 10th Mar 2001, 23:51
  #18 (permalink)  
Silver Thunder
Posts: n/a
Thumbs up

Bravo Iain!
Old 11th Mar 2001, 00:38
  #19 (permalink)  
The Guvnor
Posts: n/a

LimeyAK - as usual, you're trying to twist things around here.

So let's keep it simple, so that you can understand, OK?

1) The CAA regs state that wet leases of foreign aircraft will be permitted for a maximum of six months. BA used theior influence to get that extended to what, the best part of three years? If BALPA was a half-way effective union, they should have blocked this - as the IPA has worked arduously to do - as it is BA crews that should be flying those aircraft.

2) The operation of wet-lease aircraft from the UK, on behalf of British Airways, on international routes should be done by a UK AOC holder, with UK or EU crews.

3) AACS is not a union busting operation. Again, let's keep it simple. How many aircraft will AACS operate? How many aircraft are in the ATLAS fleet? Do you, in all honesty, expect BA to merrily turn round and say to ATLAS management "no problem guys; you can ground our aircraft in order to operate other services for other airlines. Good luck with the union busting!"

Yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh rrrrrriiiiiiggggghhhttttt!!!!

4) If AACS pilots want to, they can join BALPA - and/or, if they organise themselves as a union, the IPA.

5)AFX operates B747s (-200s) and should have been given preference to provide aircraft; and if they didn't (or couldn't) then Cargolus has -400s that they could have leased to BA.

6) ATLAS is an ACMI operator: this means that they never fly for their own account. Aerial mercenaries, in fact. Polar Air Cargo is a 'normal' airline - flying its own routes and at its own financial risk. They are more than welcome in PIK where they contribute to the economy and do not steal jobs from Brits and other Europeans.

From what I understand, ATLAS pilots were given a pay increase in exchange for not organising themselves. They have reneged on their side of the deal. Now, they whine about the company not being sympathetic to them. Serves you right, lads!

As I said in an earlier post, this is a global industry and companies such as ATLAS will start to establish offshore operations both to comply with local rules and to reduce their costs. Remember, at the end of the day management is answerable to the owners of the company - the stockholders - and their primary interest is in the maximisation of profits.

You want sanctions applied against ATLAS? I agree with you. I think that all ATLAS aircraft operating in Europe (and all other US ACMI operators), for European airlines should be embargoed; that no assistance should be given to non-EU crews by any airport or operations staff; and that they should have their travel privileges on EU airlines revoked. Perhaps that way they would perhaps wake up and smell the coffee!
Old 11th Mar 2001, 00:51
  #20 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Let me try to get this straight;
The United States of America has one President, one Congress, one Supreme
Court that rules hopefully in the best interest of the majority of the people of the USA. We also have (good or bad) a IRS that taxes all of the people at specified rates.
Now you folks in the EU claim that you're one country (well sort of).
Let's see, my last fellow crewmembers that worked at STN lived in various other European Countries (they very quickly pointed out to me)in order to avoid paying their fair share of taxes to the UK.
I live in the State of Connecticut and pay the same rate of Federal taxes as my fellow crewmembers that live in any of the other forty-nine states. Also, whether I live in Maine or Montana the dollar is the standard form of currency. Now of course I'm dating myself, but in the late sixties it didn't matter if I lived in Anchorage or Atlanta,
I still received a draft card and had the responsibility to serve my country.
Now, let's see all those Euros as currency in the UK, Denmark, Switzerland, etc. right!, not even close! ;how about a European elected central government? The French would love that! It would rule and tax equally, Ireland to Italy, Poland to Portugal. Maybe in a hundred years!
Come on guys, the EU is a great step forward into the 1970's, but it is still made up of independent and sovereign nations, not one single unified country.
If your airline has the 5th freedom rights,you are more that welcome to fly to JFK and pick up US passengers and take them to BDA, ANU, AUA, FDF, etc. like BA did, as well as KLM and AF just to name a few.
Your governments'(note the plural usage) allow Atlas to operate it's own planes on behalf of other carriers to other countries the same as the US allows foreign carriers to pick up and fly through the US to other countries. Maybe the US pilots should demand seniority numbers on every EU carrier that operates through the US and it's territories?
It's only fair!
Having met and flown with more than a few AACS crewmembers, I find them to be, (perish the thought) a lot like me. We like what we're doing,flying, we try to be professionals, we like women, boats, planes, cars and our kids, and we're trying to make a living. My problem is with the Atlas management team (AMT) that is using AACS as a weapon against the Atlas Crews that built the airline and without us there wouldn't be an AACS today. Also now that I've met these folks I find that the AMT doesn't really want us to get together.
Go figure! We might all try to form some sort of an organization. That would force Atlas Holdings to form Pakistan AACS or something even more cost effective.
Anyway, Atlas is a US corporation that is using AACS mainly as an economic tool, as well as a bargaining chip. If anyone thinks that the AMT is hiring EU citizens for ethical reasons, then you're spending too much time in certain smoking bars in AMS.
Some of you that claim the EU is the same as the US need a reality check!
Give us all a break!
Finally, in another month spring should be arriving in the UK. That would be a great time for the "Guv" (all the best to him and his 1011's) to get his soapbox out and make a weekend tour of UK's parks. Maybe he'll publish his schedule? We Atlas folks on layovers in the UK would love to listen!
We could even donate a few Euros, oops!, that's right the UK doesn't use the EU's money!

[This message has been edited by Ct.Yankee (edited 10 March 2001).]

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.