Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.


Old 23rd Mar 2001, 01:51
  #101 (permalink)  
Mary Poppins
Posts: n/a

Any chance you guys can stick to the topic?
History can be interesting but..............
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 02:08
  #102 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Sorry, guys, I made an elementary error, I thought that state to state in the US was the same as state to state in the EU.

I am a little uncertain as to what the international definition of a union of states is, in order to have legal status to negotiate route rights. Perhaps Beaver would enlighten us?

I hesitate to stir the WW2 pot too much, but suffice it to say that most of the world paid for the assault on humanity made by Herr Hitler. The Americans paid a big price, but they are a big country.
Proportionately, the Russians are the ones who paid the biggest price, and the UK bankrupted itself and lost many fine people, standing up for what it thought was right.

It could be argued that if Britain had not fought alone, it too would have been swallowed up and the might of a combined Europe/Asia would have been brought to bear on the US before it awoke from it's isolationist slumber.We would all have been speaking German, or Japanese. Thank God that didn't happen, English is bad enough.

By the way, the way I heard the story, the US intelligence knew they were going to be attacked, but not the exact time. (But the radar people saw it coming, but were ignored)

I reiterate, loudness and insults do not guarantee correctness, so gentlemen, let's stick to discussion not harangues.

It'll never fly.

[This message has been edited by RightsFlyer (edited 22 March 2001).]
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 02:53
  #103 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

The arguments rage on but are sidelined frequently by trivia. The thrust of the matter is that many did write to the Departments responsible protesting at Atlas operating on a dispensation to the EU Directive. It is my belief that many palms were greased, many lunches bought and many promises of the 'future' were made and certain people in the contracts stage were made to feel like royalty. None of that is anything new in commerce but it leaves a foul taste in a lot of peoples mouths.
I respect the case of Atlas mainline pilots and I truly believe they are collectively being shafted by the new MO in AACS or whatever its called this week.
AACS seem to be without principal and have made offers to withdraw them again after individuals have crossed the bridge. That in itself should be grounds for a cohesive attack by the unions on both sides of the ocean. If they can do that and get away with it they'll stop at nothing.
To the various guys who have vented their spleen on the various merits of national pride, I respect what you say. My heritage is no different to yours and we have always been on the right side of right.
Stand up for your case and we will stand alongside.
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 03:33
  #104 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a


Well said mate, this issue always seems to start with a good question and then dissolves into a Nationalistic series of barbs.
(I am not innocent)
The only way YOU will see Atlas mainline disappear from the BA contract is through your ministers just as the only way WE will see the end of AACS over here (intra US) is through our senators and judicial system.

Bringing up skewed opinions on past historical conflicts only clouds the issues at hand and shows pretty poor taste.

Regards, Lak
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 05:49
  #105 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Sense beginning to prevail at last. Got to agree with you. As long as we tilt at the symptom we will not deal with the disease, which is political in nature.
Divide and rule will succeed unless we out-think the playmakers. Pilots do not make the plays, but maybe we can influence those who do.
Just as you say, let us find out who precisely is accountable for the areas that are causing grief, and confront them with our views, on a regular basis to keep their attention.

lost in hold.
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 06:13
  #106 (permalink)  
Beaver Driver
Posts: n/a

Well Said. Sometimes we all need to step back a little from such an emotional and divisive issue. Thanks.

Sovereignity is the issue here. The U.S. and her relationship with the individual states can be summed up like this. The U.S. government has the ultimate authority over the states in all matters inter-state (state to state) or international. (having said that, however, I know there are exceptions, but these were specificaly granted or allowed by the fed). For instance the State of Colorado has no right to negotiate a treaty with a foreign (sovereign) nation, rather that kind of treaty would have to come from the US Federal government.

The states also have no rights to regulate anything the federal government has claimed. The airspace over the entire U.S. and it's territories is one example of something that is deemed federal and thus the states were forced to give up their rights to regulate it (if they even wanted to).

For the EU to have this kind of government will be near impossible in our lifetime due to the current nationalistic ideas of most over there. You all have different historys, rich heritage, and varied government systems that you are comfortable with, and understandably reluctant to give up. But, that is what it would take, IMHO, to be able to effectively regulate and control the EU airspace as the US federal government regulates and controls the airspace over here. Until that happens, there will be no such thing as cabotage in the EU for foreign aircraft flying between different countries. It will be what it is right now; simply 5th freedom rights, which are all part of the multi-lateral treaties negotiated at the Chicago Conference of 1944.

Limey - Good post. I know you are as unhappy with AACS as I am. It's hard not to blame the AACS guys and the U.K.. Guess if we did that we'd be just as bad as some on this board who blame Atlas pilots for all their troubles. Next thing you know we'll all be responsible for the corrosion found in a warm L-1011. Maybe we can convince everyone to blame Atlas management.

CD-Thanks for that. Many of us have written our congressmen on this issue. Maybe we could write your ministers and you could write our congressmen. They might listen to you...they sure don't listen to us; mostly I think because they know we have no money for them (Atlas paycheck you know).

[This message has been edited by Beaver Driver (edited 23 March 2001).]
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 08:18
  #107 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

To the rest of you all,

Sorry for the history lesson, and the ranting and raving, it was unnecessary. I just couldn't sit back and listen to the GOV's anti-American attitude any more. I have nothing against any other citizen of any countries. We all have history that we can be proud of and don't have to put down anyone else's place of birth or residence. After all I didn't choose to be born in the U.S.A. I was just lucky not to be born in a third world poverty stricken country. I didn't start it, but hopefully it's finished. I don't apologize to the Gov, just to the rest of you all. I hate when things get personal.

So, lets get back to the point! Atlas Mgmt sucks!!!!
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 17:47
  #108 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Beaver driver,
Its nice to see a professional argument put
forward,however as one of the european contingent I disagree.
In my view the argument has nothing todo with
any 1946 international agreement,it has nothing to do with the internal politics of europe.The argument that the Europeans have
is that under no circumstances whatsoever
would the U.S. government or for that matter
ALPA allow a European company to come and fly
with European pilots from,for example,Miami
to Bogata,so I still fail to understand
why we have to accept U.S. pilots coming to London,and flying London to Dubai or coming
to Italy and Flying Milan to Delhi.
I believe that if you guys talk to us we can come to an agreement,and that may include backing any action you wish to take concerning conditions.
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 18:25
  #109 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Ummm Softy,

You are wrong, Iberia has an onwward hub from Miami. They come over to Miami in 747s and switch to Iberia narrow body short hauls to the various Island in the carribean and countries in Latin America.

Those narrow bodies can't serve Puerto Rico or the States, but they go plenty of other places.

Its just that the Spanish ruled central America, not The english so there is no market for you...


Old 23rd Mar 2001, 20:11
  #110 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

I think that probably miami was not a good example,I donīt know well the situation with
Iberia,but I would guess that it is a very long standing arrangement.
I am sure neither ALPA or the U.S. government
would allow any European company formed in 1992,to operate Miami-Bogata on a scheduled basis.Iīm not convinced as to why we should accept an American company doing this in Europe.
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 20:18
  #111 (permalink)  
The Guvnor
Posts: n/a

Beaver Driver - you continue to try and have your cake and eat it!

ATLAS is an ACMI operator, right? What I was did in my last post, was to give an example of a UK airline providing an aircraft on an ACMI basis to a US carrier. Oh no, you say ... that's not the same thing!!

Then, to make matters simple for you, I gave an example of a UK aircraft being ACMI leased to a US carrier for operations outside the USA (in fact to the UK, to make it really easy). But no, that scenario isn't the same as ATLAS either!! So what is, then??

First, a definition: cabotage = domestic operations in another country by a foreign carrier for its own account. EWR-MIA = a domestic route; but operations by a UK wet leased aircraft operating for a US carrier are NOT cabotage operations!!. During this past summer, Tradewinds had a couple of L1011s here operating intra-EU; so did Air Atlanta (an Icelandic - and therefore non-EU - carrier); and in the past American Trans Air, Tower Air and World Airways (two name but three US carriers) have frequently operated on behalf of UK airlines within the EU (and even within the UK!) on subservice (ie ACMI/wet lease).

We are NOT talking about scheduled services here. We're talking about ACMI operations. We (ie the EU) permit - at the moment - US carriers to operate for EU carriers without restriction (other than the six month rule). EU carriers, on the other hand, are not permitted to operate ACMI services for US carriers without restriction. This is the uneven playing field we are on at the moment.

And that's the problem - it's one rule for the Yanks and it's another for the rest of the world.

Incidentally, the International Transport Workers Federation's concerns about flags of convenience are all too real - I can think of several examples of carriers which are in effect UK based airlines yet are operating without proper safety and operational oversight due to their use of third world ‘flag of convenience' operations. The principal culprit is MK Airlines, which has its main operating base at Manston in Kent; its administrative and technical base in East Sussex and is registered (but has no operational or administrative presence) in Ghana. Their propensity to employ only Zimbabweans means that they, too, are stealing EU pilots' jobs.

400Skipper - my jungle is in Africa. Most Americans can't even find it on the map - and those that do tend to make an almighty cock-up there (remember Somalia, Liberia, Zaire and Angola?) You're welcome to come on over ... if you can find it!

Heavywhale - we might have lost a troublesome colony back in 1776, but we got our revenge when we burnt down the White House in when was it, 1812 or so?

We are of course appreciative for those people (like your grandfathers) who came over to the UK to fight in Europe - unlike Joe Kennedy who as US Ambassador to the Court of St James did everything he could to both prevent the US assisting the UK and support Germany (along with such other misguided individuals as Charles Lindbergh). In particular, we shall remain grateful to the members of the Eagle Squadron who flew with the RAF during the Battle of Britain.

The saying about the US forces in the UK was, as I recall: "Over paid, over sexed and over here!" Obviously a tribute to the great sensitivity and diplomacy shown by your countrymen during their sojourn here.

As for the French, we don't like them either ... - although I seem to recall that US involvement was not at the behest of the French but was rather to halt the spread of global Communism. Rather strange, really, as I understand early bombing raids were very carefully planned to avoid infrastructure targets such as the Haiphong docks specifically to avoid p*ssing off other Communist nations!

Onto more serious (and relevant) matters though - the rules here are that foreign (ie non EU) aircraft can be leased in for a maximum of six months. The ATLAS/BA contract has gone on considerably longer than that, as you well know. This is largely the fault of our own DETR which does not enforce its own rules. However, thanks mainly to pressure from the IPA, they have now insisted that they follow UK laws: obtain a UK AOC, put the aircraft on the UK register and have UK/JAA licenced crews.

As Torpedoe points out, those rules are governed under an EU Directive. You therefore have an example which shows that the EU does exert control over European skies and airline operations - much as some here may wish to try and deny its existence!

I agree with you that any attempt to use this as anything other than a UK/EU operation would be wholly improper; and in particular, I would be opposed to it being used as a source of crews for US or Asian operations. It should be, as I have said several times now, a local airline for local pilots; and based on the information you have provided I agree that the GSS scenario is a much more logical and viable situation.

That said, I disagree with you that they can assume that it will be non-Union. Remember under EU law, closed shops - whether unionised or non-union - are illegal and subject to obtaining the concensus of the required number of staff then a union - such as BALPA or the IPA if it decides to become a union - can be brought in against management's wishes.

I thought that China Airlines were returning some of their aircraft - or are those just -200s?

A final note - much as it may appear to the contrary, I am not anti-American. I have numerous American friends and also have business interests in the United States. I am, however, firmly opposed to the US tendency for "one rule for us; another for the rest of the world"; and in particular I am opposed to the hippocricy (sp?) that has been shown here where US nationals are taking jobs that are rightly (and legally) the preserve of locals; yet those same US nationals wish locals to respect their request for a boycott of the company that offers them employment (at the expense of said US nationals). Sure, it's your government that makes the laws - but I don't see any of you doing anything to make things more equitable for the people this side of the pond!

[This message has been edited by The Guvnor (edited 23 March 2001).]
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 21:06
  #112 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

The US vs EU arguments shown on this thread here are regrettable. Especially the hostorical irrelevant comments regarding wars dating back 200yrs. Unless your motive is a wind up (good fun I agree), I suggest we respect those (on all sides - German & Japanese too) that gave their lives in persuit of war.

An aside:
Whoever it was who spelt Whales with the "h" - have a look at an atlas (forgive the pun...), we think you meant Wales...

To continue:
Key point that I think people misunderstand is that we (aviation community - pilots et al) are in a increasingly globalising market.

Developments such as Star / Oneworld / code share /wet leasing etc. are tip of the iceberg. Sure, the current inability of the US & UK (or EU) to reach agreement on a level playing field, is of major concern. (I share the concerns of the Brits/Euros on the matter of "full" reciprocity, **check the dictionary for definition** before you comment...)

But we all do ourselves no favours in keeping our points of view to the short term issues.

No matter how much one shouts, screams, & jumps up & down, aviation is headed for full globalisation.

The issues of US pilots flying US aircraft in the USA, and vice-versa, are soon to be non-issues.

Sooner you think about more pressing issues involved with such globalisation, the better.

And before you ask, you know what such issues are before I even begin to mention them, eg.:

* Safety
* Flight Time Limitations
* HMI (MMI or whatver you call it)
* Salary & other conditions of employment
* Liability & culpability

The list goes on and on....

Wake up on both side of the Atlantic, and smell the beans...

You pilots do yourselves no favours by exhibiting such antagonistic, narrow minded attitudes to fellow professionals....

Old 23rd Mar 2001, 22:31
  #113 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

The other day I caught a jump seat out to California (to interview with Polar). One of my friends who works for Atlas was also jumping that day. He told me that Atlas was airmailing AACS guys to Miami so they could pick up flights on US REGISTERED AIRCRAFT.

This action is in direct contravention of U.S. law...which got me to thinking.

What kind of management has so little regard for the law? Is it possible to trust a manager / individual with such disregard for the law? Can you believe anything this person might say? Can you really believe that such a person would bargain in good faith? I mean, heck, he's a known law-breaker, right?

I'm just a simple old Texas boy, but it seems to me that the management at Atlas is not to be trusted. I believe that they would, as we sometimes say in Texas, rather climb a tree and lie, when they could easier stand on the ground and tell the truth.

Bottom line, AACS was formed as a union busting move. Pure and simple.

I hope the guys at Atlas strike, and that the strike puts Atlas out of business. If not then no pilot in the USA will have a job thats worth a damn. It would be just a matter of time before every other airline in the US would do the same thing as Atlas, and start hiring foreign pilots at ten cents on the dollar!

[This message has been edited by PPRuNe Towers (edited 24 March 2001).]
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 23:12
  #114 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Im not a fan of the Guv but thatīs below the belt.....
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 23:24
  #115 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

I think it's time for Danny to do something about this thread

[This message has been edited by 46mph (edited 23 March 2001).]
Old 23rd Mar 2001, 23:55
  #116 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Softy, JAL flies Tokyo-JFK-Sao Paulo.
Same for KAL and JAL from Seoul -LAX-Sao Paulo.
Old 24th Mar 2001, 02:02
  #117 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

I think the Iberia MIA onwards operation is a "change of gauge" ie a large aircraft brings in a number of passengers who then continue in smaller aircraft to a further point. Usually such operations do not allow sector traffic on the smaller gauge sectors.

The JAL and KAL JFK-Brazil operations are probably in exchange for points beyond Tokyo or Seoul operated by US carriers. Exchange of 5th onward points is fairly common.

lost in hold.
Old 24th Mar 2001, 03:28
  #118 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Heavywhale, you should maybe study a little history that is off of the North American continent before youy comment on foreign affairs. The French were out of Vietnam before the "Americans" stepped in. In fact review your history and read Henry Kissingers autobiography. It will enlighten your conceptions on many things that revolve around your small nucleus. As for the rest of the debate, why is this becoming a bashing of some sorts?
Seems pilots have nothing better to do than bitch and complain.
Atlas is definately doing the "Union busting thing", and the Europeans do not have the balls to stand up!!! Poor us!!
585 million against 280 million and we still @#$% it up.
As the saying goes "Divide and conquer"
That's what Atlas and the European politicians are doing to all us poor bastards.

Keep the blue side up
Old 24th Mar 2001, 07:52
  #119 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

[This message has been edited by KaptainKangaroo (edited 24 March 2001).]
Old 24th Mar 2001, 08:30
  #120 (permalink)  
Posts: n/a

Its not the same argument,JAL operates an aircraft which is based in Japan and Japanese registered,through the U.S. to a
second destination,and this is by reciprocal agreement.Atlas on the other hand needs to base its aircraft in London to operate London
-Hong Kong with no reciprocal agreement.
Therefore the only way in my view that this can be done fairly,is to put the aircraft on the U.K. register,and operate them with people legal to work in the U.K. and as I understand it that includes American Atlas employees.

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