Air India engineer sucked into an aircraft engine at Mumbai

[iflytb20]

The aircraft was parked at V28L which puts it on the new terminal side. And afaik those are pushback stands.

[AtomKraft]

Don't call for the 'after start checks' until you have received the ground crew clearance.
Don't call for taxi until you've finished that checklist.

A wise pilot told me why, once.

[r75]

I can only speak from experience of 74s. When at ground idle, standing by the NLG and talking to the Flightdeck,it's pretty obvious the engines are only at ground idle,you can clearly see the white spiral on the spinner fairing rotating.Thats why it is there,in a very noisy environment you need a visual indication the engines are running. Once the engines start to accelerate,it does not take long for that indication to vanish,in fact at high thrust you can clearly see the intake guide vanes on the core. When taking part in a high power test run,especially looking for the start of a surge,you would be a good distance in front of the NLG,even with intake guards in place.

[Airbubba]

The aircraft was parked at V28L which puts it on the new terminal side. And afaik those are pushback stands.

OK, thanks! That makes more sense.

Don't call for the 'after start checks' until you have received the ground crew clearance.
Don't call for taxi until you've finished that checklist.

Amen to that.

Some outfits do the after start checklist before disconnecting from the mechanic in case a valve doesn't close or a light doesn't go out.

I work with some folks who are already calling for taxi clearance while I'm trying to clear the mechanic/ground engineer off the headset. It's spring loaded to mess up the habit pattern and workflow with a bad outcome in my opinion. And, I'd kinda like to hear the taxi clearance firsthand as well.

[hifly787]

Oliver2002 has got the horror story right. To add PIC was a senior TRI and P2 was just starting his SLF (Supervised line flying) in Ai parlance.

[TURIN]

Originally Posted by AtomKraft

Don't call for the 'after start checks' until you have received the ground crew clearance.
Don't call for taxi until you've finished that checklist.

A wise pilot told me why, once.

Good point.
A quick question. Is setting the flaps an after start item?

One operator I often work with sets the flaps after engine start but before the pushback is complete. On some of their a/c this puts the engines in to flight idle. An increase in engine power while the headset man is still around. I have tried to determine the logic of this as not all of the a/c do it.

[Antiquis gubernator]

It's more common than you think!

it happened to me on a BA 747/100 in Piarco in 1989 during the night as we were on the runway waiting to take off.
A nutter hijacked a security truck, rammed the number 3 engine and eventually threw himself in the number 2.
We hosed him out of the engine the next day...There wasn't a lot of him left!

[Airbubba]

Oliver2002 has got the horror story right. To add PIC was a senior TRI and P2 was just starting his SLF (Supervised line flying) in Ai parlance.

A lot of holes in the Emmental cheese threat matrix with training, APU inop and a new flight crewmember.

A quick question. Is setting the flaps an after start item?

One operator I often work with sets the flaps after engine start but before the pushback is complete. On some of their a/c this puts the engines in to flight idle. An increase in engine power while the headset man is still around. I have tried to determine the logic of this as not all of the a/c do it.

I've seen several flap setting strategies in airliners over the years. The early jets like the 707 and DC-8 had low wings and the fear was that a fire bottle or something else left on the ramp might ding the flap (and somehow miss the engine) on taxi out so the flaps were not extended until clearing the ramp area. It was also a common 'technique' to disable the takeoff config warning horn ('set off by the white knobs' on the Boeing oral gouge) to avoid spurious alerts while taxiing so the situation was set up for a calamity.

I flew with a couple of operators who reset the flaps to a takeoff position after landing thinking that would default to a flyable configuration for the next crew if all else failed.

These days we set the flaps when the aircraft first moves forward under its own power. Unless there is frozen precip, contaminated taxiways and such, in which case we taxi out with flaps up but the PIC has to devise a 'plan of action' to ensure that the flaps are properly extended for takeoff. The Styrofoam coffee cup placed on the flap handle is one popular visible reminder that something needs to be done with that handle before takeoff.

As you observe, some planes go to flight idle when the flaps are extended on the ground, others only do it only when the flaps are extended while airborne. Also, turning on engine heat for taxi, which would be on the after start checklist, also bumps up the idle with some motors.

[A320FOX]

Airbus SOPs

After starting the engines we do the flow performing certain items that will be requested later, then if everything is normal we advise the ground people to disconnect and when they wave us off we read the "after start check list". Now we can both concentrate on the taxi instructions so we request taxi clearance.

Taxi lights on before starting to move are a must.

At times when performing an abnormal checklist, like this "no APU bleed" or "crossbleed" start, other factors mix things up more, like a very warm uncomfortable cockpit due to no bleed air for the packs or behind schedule because of no APU related reasons. Now is when we need most a crew that is used to follow SOPs and a management that doesn't press crews for the reason of the delay. In my airline we can't press management for the reason why the APU hasn't been fixed and has been MELed for a week.

[lomapaseo]

at high thrust you can clearly see the intake guide vanes on the core

Your ability to see the inlet guide vanes behind the spinning fan is a function of your eye angle to the engine. You are actually looking between blades whether the fan is turning or not. The clarity of your vision is also a function of the abiity of your eye to average what it sees.

It aint the same when you look out the other side cockpit window

[r75]

The point I am trying to make,that may have been missed,is that at high thrust settings and a noisy environment,to the inexperienced,that person may not realise that the reason those spiral markings cannot be seen is that the engine is at such a high thrust setting and must be kept well clear of.

[AtomKraft]

One of the stupid practices which persists in India, is that 'he who calls for taxi first, takes off first'. ATC enforce this pointless procedure routinely.

No one has ever explained to me why they do this here, but they do.

So, for some crews, there's a temptation to call for taxi before they are really ready to, in order to ensure they get to go first.

I wonder if this silly procedure was part of the lead up to this tragedy?

[barit1]

Semantics in the trades

From wikipedia:

The perception and definition of engineer varies across countries and continents. British school children in the 1950s were brought up with stirring tales of "the Victorian Engineers", chief amongst whom were the Brunels, the Stephensons, Telford and their contemporaries. In the UK, "engineering" was more recently perceived as an industry sector consisting of employers and employees loosely termed "engineers" who included the semi-skilled trades. However, the 21st-century view, especially amongst the more educated members of society, is to reserve the term Engineer to describe a university-educated practitioner of ingenuity represented by the Chartered (or Incorporated) Engineer. However, a large proportion of the UK public still sees Engineers as semi skilled tradespeople with a high school education.

In the US and Canada, engineering is a regulated profession whose practice and practitioners are licensed and governed by law. A 2002 study by the Ontario Society of Professional Engineers revealed that engineers are the third most respected professionals behind doctors and pharmacists.[19]

[G-CPTN]

So a locomotive driver is an engineer?

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by G-CPTN

So a locomotive driver is an engineer?

Of course, just ask Casey Jones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig3GcDBjQN4

[llondel]

However, the 21st-century view, especially amongst the more educated members of society, is to reserve the term Engineer to describe a university-educated practitioner of ingenuity represented by the Chartered (or Incorporated) Engineer.

I'd challenge that bit - an awful lot of people (me included) who haver a career in engineering never bothered to get Chartered status because it was of no benefit to what we were doing. If you're doing certain types of job then it is useful, but for the most part the simplistic view is that it's paying out money to be able to have CEng after your name. Ironically, the people who benefit most are the ones who did not get a degree and did the hard slog up the route requiring 15 years' experience because to them, it's a piece of paper showing they're at least equal to the ones with degrees and that does have value with employers.

[ukv1145]

Barit1, the point of your post defining 'engineer' is? Cant really see any relevance to this thread. Are you trying to intimate something about the education of maintenence personnel?

[HJS bhullar]

a different take

A different take on AI 619 accident.
Chain of events :
A senior examiner flies down from somewhere in middle east to mumbai . Same time this flight to Hyderabad gets stuck because of a last minute sick report by another captain. The examiner is pulled out to operate this flight to Hyderabad, this also being a training flight of a 10 hours old trainee first officer.
Now , this stand 28L itself is a very confusing pushback stand as at the end of the pushback the tow tractor is at the 10 o'clock position to the Captain's seat and the nose ends up at an angle of close to 25* right.
Once pushback gets completed and the Captain has also asked the engineer to disconnect everything , he asks the trainee first officer to ask for taxi clearance. During the same time, the engineer removes the pin without having the tow tractor move away and starts folding up his headset cord at that position.
Now the entire ground equipment parks on the right side that is towards the first officer side. So the towing tractor and the ground staff has to cross under the nose of the aircraft to cross to the right.
Captain asks for right clear and that time first officer sighting nothing on the right says " right clear" .
Last but not the least , ATC asks the pilot to "EXPEDITE" to allow movement of another aircraft. The turn from pushback from 28L requires a steep left turn to come on the adjoining taxiway. During all this time the engineer was still folding his headset cord. Now as the aircraft is about to move, he starts proceeding from left to right under the nose along with his helper. The pilot puts in extra power on the right to help turn the aircraft to the left. He falls vertically right in the front of the aircraft as soon as the high power is applied and gets sucked in. His helper falls flat on the ground as he realises what has gone wrong. Hence a chain of events result into this tragedy!
May his soul rest in peace!

Plz note that I have got this version about accident on watsapp and found it worth to share and doesn't claim any responsibility of credibility.
Thanks

[Check Airman]

That version, while interesting, still seems odd.

1. Why would he walk underneath the aircraft?

2. You can't see the engines from the cockpit of an A319. Is Air India not required to get an "all clear" signal from the ground crew prior to moving the aircraft or calling for taxi?

[ACMS]

You never release the park brake until you see the engineers walk away and wave you off with the pin....EVER.

You never increase thrust on an Engine above idle without Engineer approval on the headset AND ATC clearance.....EVER.

Lessons learned the hard way before this incident killed someone, it should NOT have happened.

In some places if you are trying to be clever and request taxi clearance before the Engineers are clear ATC will tell you the engineers are still under the nose, why are you requesting taxi now? I've heard it plenty of times....