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Qatar Airways Miami Accdent, initial report

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Qatar Airways Miami Accdent, initial report

Old 7th Dec 2015, 08:10
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Qatar Airways Miami Accdent, initial report

Preliminary Occurrence Report QR778 released | Civil Aviation Authority
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 11:46
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Very poorly written report. I know it is only preliminary, but they add more confusion to the matter instead of answering any questions.

They left so much crucial information out of the report that it makes it impossible to understand. It sounds like the Onboard Perf. Tool gave them data for 9 from T1. But the report mentions a NOTAM and does not go on to say what that NOTAM says.

Hopefully the FAA will release their own report and investigation.

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Old 7th Dec 2015, 13:05
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"The OPT offered the crew only one option for Runway 09, which was 09#T1 as displayed by the OPT. This was understood by the crews to mean Runway 09 full length, although the performance data had been pre-modified by a temporary NOTAM."

Seems pretty clear to me, the crew thought they were going for full length, but then saw T1 and mistook it for taxiway T1
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 13:27
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Reasons for Always Choosing Daytime Flights and Good Weather #431 (in a never-ending modern series.)



I make an exception for Icelandair - it's often dark up there - they're used to it.
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 16:39
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No mention of duty hours or rest on the layover either, which will make interesting reading.
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 18:14
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Seems pretty clear to me, the crew thought they were going for full length, but then saw T1 and mistook it for taxiway T1
Jolly good, that's another one fixed, then.

As others have suggested, there may be lots of contributors to this one, some of them classics. If the final report is done well, it could be useful to learn from.

But with the pressure vessel breached and approach lights damaged, I'm puzzled why the NTSB doesn't appear to be investigating or why it doesn't seem to appear in the FAA incident database. Did I see an earlier comment along these lines that has now disappeared, or was it another event?
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 18:44
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Quote:
Seems pretty clear to me, the crew thought they were going for full length, but then saw T1 and mistook it for taxiway T1
Jolly good, that's another one fixed, then.

As others have suggested, there may be lots of contributors to this one, some of them classics. If the final report is done well, it could be useful to learn from.

But with the pressure vessel breached and approach lights damaged, I'm puzzled why the NTSB doesn't appear to be investigating or why it doesn't seem to appear in the FAA incident database. Did I see an earlier comment along these lines that has now disappeared, or was it another event?
The airline is the jewel in the Emirate's crown. Their establishment has very deep pockets and very compelling influence in the corridors of power in the so called paragon of democracy!
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 18:49
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Does Miami not have ground radar?
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 18:53
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NTSB delegated the investigation to Qatar CAA.

NTSB Identification: DCA15WA198

14 CFR Part 129: Foreign Qatar Airways
Incident occurred Tuesday, September 15, 2015 in Miami, FL
Aircraft: BOEING 777, registration:
Injuries: 279 Uninjured.

The foreign authority was the source of this information.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) has delegated the investigation of an incident involving a Qatar Airways Boeing 777-300, that occurred on September 15, 2015, to the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) of Qatar. The NTSB has appointed a U.S. Accredited Representative to assist the CAA investigation under the provisions of ICAO Annex 13 as the State of Manufacturer and Design of the airplane.

All investigative information will be released by the Qatar CAA.
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 19:28
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Originally Posted by HEATHROW DIRECTOR View Post
Does Miami not have ground radar?
I'm sure they do but it's irrelevant... The controllers knew exactly where they were. I'm assuming that the restriction on not using an intersection on that runway is a company one. T1 is a perfectly legitimate take off point (~2600m remaining) so if a crew says they can accept take off from there then the controllers wouldn't query it.
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 20:21
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Ahh, thanks peekay. That makes sense.
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Old 7th Dec 2015, 21:11
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"The OPT offered the crew only one option for Runway 09, which was 09#T1
On the face of it a bizarre designation for full length when there is an intersection called T1!
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 03:54
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I wouldnt imagine at QTR a 773 PIC with 38 years old...
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 04:50
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Seems pretty clear to me, the crew thought they were going for full length, but then saw T1 and mistook it for taxiway T1
OK, so you are saying that the "#T1" designation stood for temporary NOTAM, not for T1 Intersection. I understand that, and it seems the crew understood that by the statement:

This was understood by the crews to mean Runway 09 full length,
But it still does not explain what the temporary NOTAM was. And it sounds like the relief crew understood this was not full length but did not intervene. Surprised they allowed their concerns to be dismissed with a hand wave.

Takeoff performance procedures are often written in blood or very brown shorts, as they soon found out.

Another thing, the timing does not seem right. It shows Miami being only 6hrs behind Doha. I thought it was 8hrs, making it 0412 time in the morning for the crew.
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 05:39
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"The OPT offered the crew only one option for Runway 09, which was 09#T1
On the face of it a bizarre designation for full length when there is an intersection called T1!
I think there is quite a threat to operations world wide hidden in what you say there.
The way information is presented to us now days is different. We become more and more accepting of computer generated information as each year passes. A lot of that information is generated by people with computer skills, but no aviation experience.
Personally I feel like basic gross error checks and rules of thumb are becoming more and more important as I get older because of this very fact.
I think there were many contributing factors here but one of them was the use of #T1 on the OPT. One other glaring factor was the Captains choice to not actively investigate ambiguity ( re concerns from other crew members).
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 07:44
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'One other glaring factor was the Captains choice to not actively investigate ambiguity ( re concerns from other crew members)'

That for me is the most glaring thing about the incident.
Without reading the thread again I believe there were enough people with doubts on that flight deck and that should, at very least, have caused some concern.
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 08:49
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That for me is the most glaring thing about the incident.
Without reading the thread again I believe there were enough people with doubts on that flight deck and that should, at very least, have caused some concern.
And which shows, alarmingly, that lessons have still not been learned. Was rank and culture once again the enemy?
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 09:06
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I know it is always the old ones that are going to get you.
Didn't BA have a narrow squeak in the W. Indies a couple of years ago in vaguely similar circumstances? But in daylight if my memory serves me right.
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 11:33
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Originally Posted by gcal View Post
Didn't BA have a narrow squeak in the W. Indies a couple of years ago in vaguely similar circumstances? But in daylight if my memory serves me right.
Rather longer ago than that: St Kitts, 26th September 2009. BA 777 crew misidentified the intersection from which they were departing, giving them a TORA some 700m less than anticipated.
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Old 8th Dec 2015, 13:28
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Originally Posted by peekay4 View Post

NTSB delegated the investigation to Qatar CAA.
Is this standard practice ?
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