Turkish F16 shoots down unidentified aircraft in their airspace.
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Angels:
Why are so excited about the bases? Many countries have their presence abroad. A routine stuff... The UK has its base in Cyprus and I have nothing against - it's a bilateral business between the British and Cypriots, and while the latter are happy who else could (and have a right to) raise a complaint?
Anyway, looks like a constructive discussion with you is not possible, you are biased with your russophobia. Though nowadays the UK is a much weaker military power than Russia, I have a great respect to the UK including all people in the military aviation whom I knew and know.
Discussion on this topic in the military thread is even more constructive.
PersonFromPorlock:
It has been clearly explained by the Russian pilots that they did not listen to 121.5 MHz because it is an emergency channel for them and there was no state of emergency, and they were busy with the operation. They were using the "main" channel/frequency to communicate with the planes and ground. And there was no reason for them to switch to 121.5 because they did not cross the border. In the latest interview the survived flight navigator (or a weapon operator) of that Su-24M said that the visibility was great, he saw everything visually, he knew the landscape perfectly well and could even navigate in that area without a map. And he says they did not cross the border. Whatever the Turkish officials draw on the map, the Russians draw a little bit different curves. Who might be the judge? Nobody. Especially as there might be the "tricks" like the one addressed above when the Turkish unilaterally removed the border (see the URL in the post ofG-CPTN).
Why are so excited about the bases? Many countries have their presence abroad. A routine stuff... The UK has its base in Cyprus and I have nothing against - it's a bilateral business between the British and Cypriots, and while the latter are happy who else could (and have a right to) raise a complaint?
Anyway, looks like a constructive discussion with you is not possible, you are biased with your russophobia. Though nowadays the UK is a much weaker military power than Russia, I have a great respect to the UK including all people in the military aviation whom I knew and know.
Discussion on this topic in the military thread is even more constructive.
PersonFromPorlock:
It has been clearly explained by the Russian pilots that they did not listen to 121.5 MHz because it is an emergency channel for them and there was no state of emergency, and they were busy with the operation. They were using the "main" channel/frequency to communicate with the planes and ground. And there was no reason for them to switch to 121.5 because they did not cross the border. In the latest interview the survived flight navigator (or a weapon operator) of that Su-24M said that the visibility was great, he saw everything visually, he knew the landscape perfectly well and could even navigate in that area without a map. And he says they did not cross the border. Whatever the Turkish officials draw on the map, the Russians draw a little bit different curves. Who might be the judge? Nobody. Especially as there might be the "tricks" like the one addressed above when the Turkish unilaterally removed the border (see the URL in the post ofG-CPTN).
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@G-CPTN
Actually there was no map discrepancy in that earlier incident you linked to. Russia has owned up to it, stating that the incursion was due to a "navigational error".
It was unclear if the Russian aircraft actually crossed the Turkish border or only partly into the 5-mile buffer airspace imposed over Syria.
Unfortunately such "navigational errors" may have directly led to yesterdays shoot down.
Russia says violation of Turkish airspace was ‘navigation error’
there remains the discrepancy of the location of the border as interpreted by Turkey (and Russia)
It was unclear if the Russian aircraft actually crossed the Turkish border or only partly into the 5-mile buffer airspace imposed over Syria.
Unfortunately such "navigational errors" may have directly led to yesterdays shoot down.
Russia says violation of Turkish airspace was ‘navigation error’
(Oct 5) Russia has informed Turkey that the violation of Turkish airspace near the Syrian border on Oct. 3 was due to a “navigation error,” according to Russian sources.
Turkish military sources said a Russian SU-30 breached Turkish airspace for hundreds of meters in the southern district of Yayladağı in Hatay province for two minutes at 12:10 p.m., but returned to Syrian airspace after one warning.
The Russian authorities informed the Turkish military attaché in Moscow about the error, Russian Embassy officials in Ankara told Hürriyet Daily News. ...
Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu warned that Ankara would activate military rules of engagement irrespective of who violates its air space.
"Our rules of engagement are clear whoever violates our air space," Davutoğlu told HaberTürk television after the incident.
Foreign Minister Feridun Sinirlioğlu has called his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, to lodge a protest. ...
A Turkish security official reportedly said Turkish radar locked onto the Russian aircraft as it was bombing early Oct. 2 in al-Yamdiyyah, a Syrian village directly on the border. He said Turkish fighter jets would have attacked if it had crossed into Turkish airspace.
Turkish military sources said a Russian SU-30 breached Turkish airspace for hundreds of meters in the southern district of Yayladağı in Hatay province for two minutes at 12:10 p.m., but returned to Syrian airspace after one warning.
The Russian authorities informed the Turkish military attaché in Moscow about the error, Russian Embassy officials in Ankara told Hürriyet Daily News. ...
Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu warned that Ankara would activate military rules of engagement irrespective of who violates its air space.
"Our rules of engagement are clear whoever violates our air space," Davutoğlu told HaberTürk television after the incident.
Foreign Minister Feridun Sinirlioğlu has called his Russian counterpart, Sergei Lavrov, to lodge a protest. ...
A Turkish security official reportedly said Turkish radar locked onto the Russian aircraft as it was bombing early Oct. 2 in al-Yamdiyyah, a Syrian village directly on the border. He said Turkish fighter jets would have attacked if it had crossed into Turkish airspace.
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A. Van - Russian aircraft didn't overfly U.S. territory tens or hundreds of times. They entered U.S. controlled airspace which is completely different.
And the U.S. has entered Russian airspace and got shot at.
So overflight on a country by foreign military aircraft is generally not accepted, especially after several offiicial warnings to the offending country.
And the U.S. has entered Russian airspace and got shot at.
So overflight on a country by foreign military aircraft is generally not accepted, especially after several offiicial warnings to the offending country.
TR+G
A Van,
Its a long time since I flew a military aircraft BUT if I recall correctly, in my time, RAF radios had a TR +G function, so we COULD monitor 243 Mhz at ALL times.
Operating close to a sensitive border (such as I did in Germany in my Canberra in the 1960s ) without monitoring a guard frequency does not seem to be a bright idea, regardless of the operational requirements !
...and to avoid exactly this situation we had a "buffer zone" ( 10 miles??) and if we heard a broadcast on 243 that someone was getting close to the EG border we ALL turned west to avoid the situation which occurred in Syria or Turkey ! Worked well for us.
Its a long time since I flew a military aircraft BUT if I recall correctly, in my time, RAF radios had a TR +G function, so we COULD monitor 243 Mhz at ALL times.
Operating close to a sensitive border (such as I did in Germany in my Canberra in the 1960s ) without monitoring a guard frequency does not seem to be a bright idea, regardless of the operational requirements !
...and to avoid exactly this situation we had a "buffer zone" ( 10 miles??) and if we heard a broadcast on 243 that someone was getting close to the EG border we ALL turned west to avoid the situation which occurred in Syria or Turkey ! Worked well for us.
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PersonFromPorlock:
It has been clearly explained by the Russian pilots that they did not listen to 121.5 MHz because it is an emergency channel for them and there was no state of emergency, and they were busy with the operation.
It has been clearly explained by the Russian pilots that they did not listen to 121.5 MHz because it is an emergency channel for them and there was no state of emergency, and they were busy with the operation.
I'd still like confirmation that the Russian military guard frequency is now 121.5/243.0.
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And quite right too Flowerseller. So what should concern us about this incident. I would suggest it be airspace in that part of the world. Clearly the Turks are nervous with twitchy fingers on triggers. Accordingly anything overflying the Turkish main Eastbound needs to be extra cautious. Especially heading South East. According to news tonight the SU24 was allegedly 17 secs over Turkish territory. The F16 must have been released to engage well before the incursion.
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Here is a recording of the warning
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGu-zCvURCo&t=35
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGu-zCvURCo&t=35
anyone else.
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Originally Posted by GrahamO
Would the Turkish aircraft have 'locked on' (excuse my incorrect use of terminology) for a period of time, leaving the Russian in no doubt they were in the crosshairs and then let a missile loose ?
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and to avoid exactly this situation we had a "buffer zone" ( 10 miles??) and if we heard a broadcast on 243 that someone was getting close to the EG border we ALL turned west to avoid the situation which occurred in Syria or Turkey !
Oldoberon wrote
The video is from the F-16/Su-24 shoot down.
The following is video from the Syrian side. The rescue Mi-8 Hip helicopter was hit by ground fire and abandoned with the crew seeking shelter in a nearby building. The helo was then destroyed by the rebels after the crew was rescued by the Syrians.
The segment at 3:20 (firing at parachutes) is not from this incident but from earlier in the conflict before Russian involvement.
BGM-71 TOW video from your link showing the Mi-8 Hip at 1:40 in the above video being destroyed.
Click on the following title for a liveleak copy of the first video with captions.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=419_1448455487
this video purports to be the shooting down of the rescue chopper however it is already on the ground why? don't think it is genuine chopper blown up yes but different occasion?
Syrian Rebels Destroy Russian Helicopter With US-Supplied Anti-Tank Missile | Zero Hedge
Syrian Rebels Destroy Russian Helicopter With US-Supplied Anti-Tank Missile | Zero Hedge
The following is video from the Syrian side. The rescue Mi-8 Hip helicopter was hit by ground fire and abandoned with the crew seeking shelter in a nearby building. The helo was then destroyed by the rebels after the crew was rescued by the Syrians.
The segment at 3:20 (firing at parachutes) is not from this incident but from earlier in the conflict before Russian involvement.
BGM-71 TOW video from your link showing the Mi-8 Hip at 1:40 in the above video being destroyed.
Click on the following title for a liveleak copy of the first video with captions.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=419_1448455487
plot twist : Russia sends empty planes to pick up their tourists from turkish resorts
https://twitter.com/odatv/status/669608416323706881
now go and make your own conclusions, I'll just leave the message here...
https://twitter.com/odatv/status/669608416323706881
now go and make your own conclusions, I'll just leave the message here...
"plot twist : Russia sends empty planes to pick up their tourists from turkish resorts"
Hmm, Is a new access to the Mediterranean for the Russian Navy in the works?
Hmm, Is a new access to the Mediterranean for the Russian Navy in the works?
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plot twist : Russia sends empty planes to pick up their tourists from turkish resorts
now go and make your own conclusions, I'll just leave the message here...
now go and make your own conclusions, I'll just leave the message here...
, before is too late. Seriously, it's a shame for 21st century. Remember MH17, it's so easy to push that button of anger:
https://youtu.be/ZMKo6KnFvy4?t=53
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PersonFromPorlock:
It has been clearly explained by the Russian pilots that they did not listen to 121.5 MHz because it is an emergency channel for them and there was no state of emergency, and they were busy with the operation. They were using the "main" channel/frequency to communicate with the planes and ground. And there was no reason for them to switch to 121.5 because they did not cross the border. In the latest interview the survived flight navigator (or a weapon operator) of that Su-24M said that the visibility was great, he saw everything visually, he knew the landscape perfectly well and could even navigate in that area without a map. And he says they did not cross the border. Whatever the Turkish officials draw on the map, the Russians draw a little bit different curves. Who might be the judge? Nobody. Especially as there might be the "tricks" like the one addressed above when the Turkish unilaterally removed the border (see the URL in the post ofG-CPTN).
It has been clearly explained by the Russian pilots that they did not listen to 121.5 MHz because it is an emergency channel for them and there was no state of emergency, and they were busy with the operation. They were using the "main" channel/frequency to communicate with the planes and ground. And there was no reason for them to switch to 121.5 because they did not cross the border. In the latest interview the survived flight navigator (or a weapon operator) of that Su-24M said that the visibility was great, he saw everything visually, he knew the landscape perfectly well and could even navigate in that area without a map. And he says they did not cross the border. Whatever the Turkish officials draw on the map, the Russians draw a little bit different curves. Who might be the judge? Nobody. Especially as there might be the "tricks" like the one addressed above when the Turkish unilaterally removed the border (see the URL in the post ofG-CPTN).
I appreciate your insight and comments here, communication is key to understanding. Glad one crew made it back safely, what a cluster.
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OSLK
Anyone has an approach chart to Latakia which you can post without making Jeppesen angry ?
I mean that if you approach from North even at 2.4 degree you have 42 km before you touch Turkish border appendix.
Su-24 landing speed 285-310 km/h so even half of that distance is more than enough to have stabilized approach in civil aviation manner, let alone military style which can do it in much shorter distance.
I mean that if you approach from North even at 2.4 degree you have 42 km before you touch Turkish border appendix.
Su-24 landing speed 285-310 km/h so even half of that distance is more than enough to have stabilized approach in civil aviation manner, let alone military style which can do it in much shorter distance.
Last edited by mitrosft; 26th Nov 2015 at 08:27.