Turkish F16 shoots down unidentified aircraft in their airspace.
For PPRuNe purposes, we might be better off addressing the influence on air operations, air travel, and the airspace in the region as matters of interest to the intended audience.
I wouldn't want to fly anywhere near trigger-happy russkies behind a long range SAM. Even if they don't have intention to shoot down civilian aircraft those systems are still not well tested and known to lock on wrong targets. See what happened with that Siberia flight when Ukrainians fired an older S200 rocket...
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AreOut -
The Growlers have been in Latakia for some time -- essentially since the base was established.
They are there to protect the Russian air force base from ISIS ground attack aircraft....
The Growlers have been in Latakia for some time -- essentially since the base was established.
They are there to protect the Russian air force base from ISIS ground attack aircraft....
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Some more info from Russian media.
The second pilot, the navigating officer, was rescued by Syrian Army (special forces). He is back now at the Russian base. The commander was awarded posthumously.
The Russian minister of defense has said that they are planning to send S-400 SA system to the Russian airbase of Khmeimim to secure the area in all directions. The president has approved it.
The Russian minister of defense has said that they have already taken certain counter measures against such hostile activities. In particular the missile cruiser Moskva (Moscow) has already taken its position in the sea westwards Latakia. Moskva is equipped with the Fort system (analogue of S-300) and ready to destroy any target recognized as threat.
The second pilot, the navigating officer, was rescued by Syrian Army (special forces). He is back now at the Russian base. The commander was awarded posthumously.
The Russian minister of defense has said that they are planning to send S-400 SA system to the Russian airbase of Khmeimim to secure the area in all directions. The president has approved it.
The Russian minister of defense has said that they have already taken certain counter measures against such hostile activities. In particular the missile cruiser Moskva (Moscow) has already taken its position in the sea westwards Latakia. Moskva is equipped with the Fort system (analogue of S-300) and ready to destroy any target recognized as threat.
Second crew member alive and handed over to the Syrians.
The second pilot, the navigating officer, was rescued by Syrian Army (special forces). He is back now at the Russian base.
Let's hope this will help to cool down the heat.
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I wouldn't want to fly anywhere near trigger-happy russkies behind a long range SAM. Even if they don't have intention to shoot down civilian aircraft those systems are still not well tested and known to lock on wrong targets. See what happened with that Siberia flight when Ukrainians fired an older S200 rocket...
As far as i know, it was not the case. Two rockets was launched, the first destroyed the target (drone), so, when second arrived (s200) it was nothing to do in the sky. They designed to operate in two modes "self destruct if no one there" or "Go find someone else". Because of negligence the rocket was set to operate in second mode.
On a practical note, this has the potential to make airliner transits of the Middle East and surrounding area even more complicated than it is now.
We’ve got Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and now possibly Turkey on the list, as fingers get closer to the triggers on all sides.
If Turkish airspace becomes too risky, then there will be an effective block from Kiev down to Kuwait, which is quite an inconvenience to a lot of traffic...
We’ve got Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Yemen and now possibly Turkey on the list, as fingers get closer to the triggers on all sides.
If Turkish airspace becomes too risky, then there will be an effective block from Kiev down to Kuwait, which is quite an inconvenience to a lot of traffic...
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A. I do detect a touch of racist anti Türkish feeling from some posters here.
B. Türkçe Military pilots I have had the pleasure of flying with speak quite acceptable technical English. ATC also can communicate in English perfectly well.
Unless you deviate to colloquial non standard English, they keep up and understand just fine.
C. Some of you have very little understanding of just how big the Türkish military forces actually are.
From their point of view watching those SU24s targeting their ethnic brothers must have been very irritating.
Antalya is indeed full of about 1 million Russians in mid Summer. By now nearly all will have left. They own a fair bit of property in the west of the City so boycotting the area will not go down well with the Middle Classes in Moscow.
It's all very messy, granted. all we can do is keep 121.5 turned up and pay attention.
Fly safe everyone.
B. Türkçe Military pilots I have had the pleasure of flying with speak quite acceptable technical English. ATC also can communicate in English perfectly well.
Unless you deviate to colloquial non standard English, they keep up and understand just fine.
C. Some of you have very little understanding of just how big the Türkish military forces actually are.
From their point of view watching those SU24s targeting their ethnic brothers must have been very irritating.
Antalya is indeed full of about 1 million Russians in mid Summer. By now nearly all will have left. They own a fair bit of property in the west of the City so boycotting the area will not go down well with the Middle Classes in Moscow.
It's all very messy, granted. all we can do is keep 121.5 turned up and pay attention.
Fly safe everyone.
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It's hardly racist to highlight the difficulty of military pilots communicating in what for both is a foreign language, RVF. Even if the Turkish crew spoke perfect English, who's to say the Sukhoi crew spoke any? For most of the period these warnings were being made, even by the Turkish account, it was outside their airspace. What frequency was used? A USN warship issued repeated warnings to the Iran Air Airbus before shooting it down...on UHF which it could never have received.
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Some more info (probably already well-known) on the story.
Shortly after SU-24 was downed two Russian SAR birds were launched to extract the pilots. These were Mi-8 helicopters, a toy helicopter comparatively to Mi-17 or Mi-24. One of the birds was seriously hit by the ground machine fire from ISIL or so called moderate opposition so it had to land; one of the SAR team onboard (a marine) was killed.
The second helicopter took all crew and SAR members from the first helicopter. The first helicopter was abandoned on ground. Soon it was destroyed with the US-made TOW rocket launcher by ISIL or so called moderate opposition (the video of this can be found on youtube).
So there are two casualties: the attack plane commander and a SAR marine.
Shortly after SU-24 was downed two Russian SAR birds were launched to extract the pilots. These were Mi-8 helicopters, a toy helicopter comparatively to Mi-17 or Mi-24. One of the birds was seriously hit by the ground machine fire from ISIL or so called moderate opposition so it had to land; one of the SAR team onboard (a marine) was killed.
The second helicopter took all crew and SAR members from the first helicopter. The first helicopter was abandoned on ground. Soon it was destroyed with the US-made TOW rocket launcher by ISIL or so called moderate opposition (the video of this can be found on youtube).
So there are two casualties: the attack plane commander and a SAR marine.
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Shotone,
Several posters have accused Turks of poor English which is ignorance as it is just not true. Virtually all Turkish Military crew will have gone to a Military High School and studied English extensively- in an American style. That much is obvious by pronunciation of some words.
The comms go on 121.5mhz VHFand I and other civilian airliners hear them all the time, and also on 243mhz UHF.
If the Su-24 did not listen to this, or they couldn't, they really had no place being in the air in this part of the world!
Several posters have accused Turks of poor English which is ignorance as it is just not true. Virtually all Turkish Military crew will have gone to a Military High School and studied English extensively- in an American style. That much is obvious by pronunciation of some words.
The comms go on 121.5mhz VHFand I and other civilian airliners hear them all the time, and also on 243mhz UHF.
If the Su-24 did not listen to this, or they couldn't, they really had no place being in the air in this part of the world!
Rotate on this!
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If the Su-24 did not listen to this, or they couldn't, they really had no place being in the air in this part of the world!
The whole incident was regrettable and avoidable on both sides. Some of the sabre rattling and aggression shown on this board is completely inappropriate. I don't think it's in the interests of either side to escalate the situation.
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Chess playing
It should be obvious by now that the Russian bomber was not shot down for violating Turkish airspace. This was a tactical move by both sides, each for their own strategic reasons (better explained in many posted analyses in the international press, from all sides) that has been brewing over for the past few weeks.
Turkey has been violating Greek FIR, as a matter of daily routine for as long as anyone can remember. In all cases, sometimes several times a day, Greece scrambles F2000s or F16s to intercept and identify. This is based on a different type of dispute (one over territorial water and continental shelf rights, EEZs and so on). Most of the intercepts end uneventfully, with the Turkish jets leaving the area, once identified. Some result in dogfights (in the good old sense) and FOX3s before the Turkish jets leave the area. And (fortunately not often) some have resulted in tragic misshaps with loss of life on both sides.
Turkey has been violating Greek FIR, as a matter of daily routine for as long as anyone can remember. In all cases, sometimes several times a day, Greece scrambles F2000s or F16s to intercept and identify. This is based on a different type of dispute (one over territorial water and continental shelf rights, EEZs and so on). Most of the intercepts end uneventfully, with the Turkish jets leaving the area, once identified. Some result in dogfights (in the good old sense) and FOX3s before the Turkish jets leave the area. And (fortunately not often) some have resulted in tragic misshaps with loss of life on both sides.
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Thinkrate
That is an entirely different situation, since the Greek/Turkish spat is down to the fact that they disagree over the sovereignty of the airspace. Without getting into an entirely unrelated argument, the Turks would state that the greeks are the ones in the wrong place.
That is an entirely different situation, since the Greek/Turkish spat is down to the fact that they disagree over the sovereignty of the airspace. Without getting into an entirely unrelated argument, the Turks would state that the greeks are the ones in the wrong place.
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Anybody who has been military aircrew knows that this is part of the game.
You fly over somebody else's territory, no matter how briefly, you get in the poo (friendly nation) or risk getting shot down (unfriendly nation)
The Russians have done it, the Americans have done it, the Turks have done it, The Syrians have done it, the Greeks have done it, the Isrealis have done it, and I'm sure we have done it.
I have no doubt that in Russian military headquarters there are some pragmatic conversations going on about it.
It is part of the game. Pushing limits to see who is weak and who has a pair. It may seem childish, but the reality of international geopolitics generally is.
In the last few years, the Syrians have shot down a Turk. The Turks have shot down Syrians. It is a hot war zone.
We all know.
You don't cross the line, and if you do, then beware.
p.s. The whole "which side of the line were they when hit?" discussion is just cr@p. What do you think this is? Tag in the playground?
You fly over somebody else's territory, no matter how briefly, you get in the poo (friendly nation) or risk getting shot down (unfriendly nation)
The Russians have done it, the Americans have done it, the Turks have done it, The Syrians have done it, the Greeks have done it, the Isrealis have done it, and I'm sure we have done it.
I have no doubt that in Russian military headquarters there are some pragmatic conversations going on about it.
It is part of the game. Pushing limits to see who is weak and who has a pair. It may seem childish, but the reality of international geopolitics generally is.
In the last few years, the Syrians have shot down a Turk. The Turks have shot down Syrians. It is a hot war zone.
We all know.
You don't cross the line, and if you do, then beware.
p.s. The whole "which side of the line were they when hit?" discussion is just cr@p. What do you think this is? Tag in the playground?